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Scrollbars are becoming a problem

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Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#901

Post by CRConrad »

shiroiuma wrote: post #891
Fluorescence wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say orthogonal. Making something inviting, approachable and feel like a safe place to experiment/explore for a novice is a critical and overlooked part of usability. The childlike choices of "bright primary colours" and "no sharp edges" is one way to attempt that. It's what the general public needs that us nerds can least relate to.

It might have been good for brand-new users and children, but not all computer users are like that. It would have been much better if they had had selectable themes. The best-looking Windows UI, IMO, was Vista.

> It might have been good for brand-new users and children, but not all computer users are like that.

Well, are you sure which of those groups you belong to? At least as far as Windows is concerned? Because:

> It would have been much better if they had had selectable themes.

It did. One click in the right place in the Control Panel and it looked like W95/NT4/W2K. (So did Windows 7, and therefore I must assume Vista, too. [Skipped that one myself.])

But, hey, brand-new users and children couldn't be expected to find that, right?

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#902

Post by CRConrad »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #837
JohnFen wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may have looked goofy, but it was usable. I'll take ugly/goofy and usable over pretty and hard-to-use every single time.

You shouldn't need to make that trade off though. There is no rule that says a usable interface has to be ugly.

You didn't need to. Select the W95/NT4/W2K theme in the "Appearance" Control Panel, and done.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#903

Post by CRConrad »

JohnFen wrote: post #650
arcanemachiner wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree to disagree I guess. I don't need a window border when I can drag/resize the window from anywhere in that window.

I do need window borders. A good interface would allow enough configuration that we both could have what we want.

> A good interface would allow enough configuration that we both could have what we want.

Like Windows, from at least 3.1 (ca 1987?) to at least mid-life of Windows 7 (ca 2012-14?). The item under discussion, window border width, used to be settable from 0 up to... Pretty much all of your screen. (But from some update somewhere halfway through W7, it defaulted to at least one pixel however hard you tried to set it to zero.)

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#904

Post by CRConrad »

nickserv wrote: post #877
arcanemachiner wrote: post #811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's more like being disappointed that there's no way to start the engine in my car with a hand crank, instead of using the key.

Some older (pre 21st century ) motorcycles have a kick starter in addition to the electric one, and it does actually come in handy. On newer bikes if the starter fails or the battery dies you need to unceremoniously push the bike to speed, jump on and put it on first.

> Some older (pre 21st century ) motorcycles have a kick starter in addition to the electric one, and it does actually come in handy.

AFAIK quite a lot of 21st-century motorbikes still have that. (Some of them probably still only have that.)

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#905

Post by CRConrad »

bonton89 wrote: post #682
l0b0 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recursive agree to all the above, purely in terms of UI/UX. Firefox currently has about 20x20 pixels next to the tabs to grab and move the window, and "always show scrollbars" is off by default. This would be reasonable on a phone, but not on any kind of machine with a mouse.

Can you not right click and enable menu bar to get the traditional menu (plus a title bar of sorts) back for this? I'm not really defending firefox UI to strongly here, I use it every day as my browser of choice and I find the defaults wonky but at least customizable.

> Can you not right click and enable menu bar to get the traditional menu

FF has a great compromise setting, keeps the menu bar hidden by default but it appears when you press (the CUA standard keys) [Alt] or [F10]. (At least on Windows, that is.)

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#906

Post by CRConrad »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #677
supportengineer wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After a few small tweaks, Windows 7 Professional was a cat. Purring in my lap cause it loves me.

Windows 7 with the Classic theme was peak UI/UX, IMO. It's been downhill ever since.

> Windows 7 with the Classic theme was peak UI/UX, IMO.

Yup. Until some point midway through its lifetime, when they started disabling (at least some) detailed UI settings even via the Registry.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#907

Post by CRConrad »

Fatnino wrote: post #789
Narishma wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it worked like that since the very first Windows version.

Fair, but after win3.1 there wasn't a menu up in that corner anymore.

> Fair, but after win3.1 there wasn't a menu up in that corner anymore.

WTF are you on about?!? There still is!

Source: Just clicked on the top-left icons on a few programs in Windows 10. Not guideline-defying shit like Microsoft Office / Outlook / Edge / Teams, of course, but programs that follow the Windows developer guidelines display the standard menu just like they've always done: Restore, Move, Size, Minimize, Maximize, Close (usually also displaying the shortcut key, [Alt-F4]). Notepad++ does, WinSCP does, 7-Zip does, PuTTY does, SAS client software does, Teradata client software does... Seems most built-in Windows utilities do, too: File Explorer does, Task Manager does, Command Prompt does, Notepad does, Paint does, Snipping Tool does...

[Edit:] And even in Word / Excel / Edge / Outlook / Teams, at least that menu appears up in the top-left corner when you press the age-old shortcut [Alt]-[Space], even though there is no icon for it. (That was what the W3.x icon was supposed to depict, BTW: The space bar, not a hyphen or minus sign.) [/Edit]

Seems you have to go out of your way to build a Windows app that doesn't have a system menu up in the top-left corner. (Start building a Windows application in most IDEs I've used, and unless you change the default settings it sure gets one automatically.) So why do you spout such drivel, when you obviously have no idea what you're talking about?

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#908

Post by shiroiuma »

CRConrad wrote: post #901
shiroiuma wrote: post #891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might have been good for brand-new users and children, but not all computer users are like that. It would have been much better if they had had selectable themes. The best-looking Windows UI, IMO, was Vista.

> It might have been good for brand-new users and children, but not all computer users are like that. Well, are you sure which of those groups you belong to? At least as far as Windows is concerned? Because: > It would have been much better if they had had selectable themes. It did. One click in the right place in the Control Panel and it looked like W95/NT4/W2K. (So did Windows 7, and therefore I must assume Vista,…

I was a Linux user back then (and still am). I didn't spend enough time with XP to bother learning intricacies like that.

Plus, W2K was ugly too, just in a different way.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#909

Post by Biganon »

CRConrad wrote: post #898
prmoustache wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can’t move a window anymore without clicking around like an idiot to figure out what’s part of the title bar and what’s a button. I don't know about MacOS and Windows nowadays but most linux/BSD window managers + Haiku allows one to move or resize a window using a keyboard shortcut so that you can do it regardless of where you put the cursor. It is a must have to know because there is inevitably moments where you…

> I don't know about MacOS and Windows nowadays but most linux/BSD window managers + Haiku allows one to move or resize a window using a keyboard shortcut so that you can do it regardless of where you put the cursor. Except this is an X11 feature, and they're all frantically switching to Wayland... Which probably doesn't have that feature, right?

It has nothing to do with X11, and everything to do with your window manager. Many wayland dms allow it, such as sway which is a clone of i3.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#910

Post by CRConrad »

shiroiuma wrote: post #908
CRConrad wrote: post #901

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It might have been good for brand-new users and children, but not all computer users are like that. Well, are you sure which of those groups you belong to? At least as far as Windows is concerned? Because: > It would have been much better if they had had selectable themes. It did. One click in the right place in the Control Panel and it looked like W95/NT4/W2K. (So did Windows 7, and therefore I must assume Vista,…

I was a Linux user back then (and still am). I didn't spend enough time with XP to bother learning intricacies like that. Plus, W2K was ugly too, just in a different way.

> I was a Linux user back then (and still am). I didn't spend enough time with XP to bother learning intricacies like that.

Then why spend time commenting -- ERRONEOUSLY -- on them now?

> Plus, W2K was ugly too, just in a different way.

Über den Geschmack streiten sich selbst die Götter vergebens.

Anyway, point stands:

> > It would have been much better if they had had selectable themes.

> It did.

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