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Scrollbars are becoming a problem

artemis.sh

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Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#891

Post by shiroiuma »

Fluorescence wrote: post #436
shiroiuma wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usability was very good. The appearance was goofy and Fisher-Price-like. The two things are mostly orthogonal.

I wouldn't say orthogonal. Making something inviting, approachable and feel like a safe place to experiment/explore for a novice is a critical and overlooked part of usability. The childlike choices of "bright primary colours" and "no sharp edges" is one way to attempt that. It's what the general public needs that us nerds can least relate to.

It might have been good for brand-new users and children, but not all computer users are like that. It would have been much better if they had had selectable themes.

The best-looking Windows UI, IMO, was Vista.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#892

Post by CRConrad »

hypercube33 wrote: post #57
jwells89 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, we wouldn't need "dark mode" or the such if the UIs had any contrast and were legible. Contrast is a factor yes, but the other thing that's happened with the flat UI epidemic is banishment of mid grays and light grays in favor of stark white and off-whites, making "light mode" much more bright looking than it had been previously. It's no wonder people were clamoring for dark mode after blinding flat UI had ta…

Not only that but it seems like color from icons has gone - now we get black and white ones. I'd get it if these companies making the UX were small, because yes its super hard to deal with accessibility and different color blindness but I agree - we've lost anything but the extremest of the extreme colors.

> it seems like color from icons has gone - now we get black and white ones.

No, light grey -- or some other light pastel colour -- and white.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#893

Post by CRConrad »

ckyngcybra wrote: post #588
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a "no real Scotsman" defense of the UI/UX industry becoming subordinate to Marketing Departments?

I've never heard/read of that concept before. Is it the same as there is no such thing as an honest person?

> I've never heard/read of that ["No true Scotsman"] concept before.

Then get some Allgemeinbildung before you spout off on the "enlightenment", or lack thereof, of others.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#894

Post by CRConrad »

canucker2016 wrote: post #425
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That title bar thing, good god damn. I have to concentrate my vision on the title bar to place my fucking cursor between non-outlined active sections just to grab that motherfucker and shove it over. It is entirely a user experience regression. There's no benefit gained, whatsoever, from moving content to the title bar. Easily moving a window by dragging the title bar was something that "just worked" for at least two…

Alt-Space, 'M' is your friendly keyboard method to move a window around. After pressing those three keys, use the cursor keys to move the window around as you desire, and press the Enter key when you're happy with the window's new location or press the Esc key to cancel the move op. Works really well when the window's title bar has been moved offscreen for some reason. IBM's CUA for the win. https://en.wikipedia.org/…

You wanna freak out anyone under the age of about 45-50, use the [Ctrl]-[Ins] / [Shift]-[Ins] / [Shift]-[Del] shortcuts while they're watching your keyboard. Everyone nowadays only knows those Apple-copied [Ctrl]-[C]/[V]/[X] ones, and thinks they're the God-given Standard.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#895

Post by CRConrad »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #729
david422 wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on. Why even have a title bar at that point. Why not just stick a little tab on the side and get rid of the title bar entirely.

Is "Yes, good idea." the response you're expecting? Because that's my response. But title bars are mandatory, so that's why not.

> But title bars are mandatory, so that's why not.

They're mandatory because they're the way to move the window with your mouse. So fucking them up with a bunch of stuff that hinders that is just as bad as not having them in the first place.

Congratulations, you've circumvented the mandatory requirement!

Which is just as bad as disregarding it in the first place.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#896

Post by CRConrad »

funcDropShadow wrote: post #880
Dylan16807 wrote: post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bastardized yes, but you can't truly get rid of it in all circumstances. If there is a clean way to get rid of it, then sure that's a good option for some programs. (But there are a couple bits that you need to keep.) But to ask "why even have it" is to fall into a discussion more about backwards compatibility than design.

> But to ask "why even have it" is to fall into a discussion more about backwards compatibility than design. No, it is a question about design. Window environments like Windows 11, macOS, Gnome or lots of other Linux window managers are designed for desktop PCs, not tablets. I would include Laptops under desktop PCs for this discussion, since most people -- that are working the whole day on their laptop -- add one or…

> I often have to search for the window that is in focus. It used to be clearly visible with a significant color difference in the titlebar.

First and worst offender against this basic Windows guideline: Microsoft Office.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#897

Post by CRConrad »

wpm wrote: post #850
kaba0 wrote: post #849

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, what’s the alternative? Go back to Internet Explorer style windows, with 3 toolbars?

Yes? We managed on 1024x768 screens and all that “wasted” real estate. Meanwhile I have two 2880x2560 monitors hanging off my dock and UX designers are tripping over themselves to hide more shit in the overflow menu to save me 5 pixels of vertical space.

And one of those monitors is pivoted vertical...

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#898

Post by CRConrad »

prmoustache wrote: post #469
rayiner wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Morons” is the right word. I don’t like to gratuitously shit on people doing their jobs. But what the hell? I can’t move a window anymore without clicking around like an idiot to figure out what’s part of the title bar and what’s a button. Every time I start “New Teams,” it asks me if I want to go back to Old Teams. If I open a PDF in New Teams from the file browser, it’s not obvious how to close the PDF without los…

> I can’t move a window anymore without clicking around like an idiot to figure out what’s part of the title bar and what’s a button. I don't know about MacOS and Windows nowadays but most linux/BSD window managers + Haiku allows one to move or resize a window using a keyboard shortcut so that you can do it regardless of where you put the cursor. It is a must have to know because there is inevitably moments where you…

> I don't know about MacOS and Windows nowadays but most linux/BSD window managers + Haiku allows one to move or resize a window using a keyboard shortcut so that you can do it regardless of where you put the cursor.

Except this is an X11 feature, and they're all frantically switching to Wayland... Which probably doesn't have that feature, right?

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#899

Post by CRConrad »

lstamour wrote: post #197
marcus_holmes wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am coming to the opinion that Windows XP was the maximum usable interface, and we should have stopped there [0]. But then, I might just be old and telling the kids to get off my lawn. [0] this is definitely true for Windows. All subsequent versions of Windows have had worse UX.

Everything old is new again? I remember when people were deriding Windows XP for being "Fisher-Price" in appearance and preferring to run Windows 2000 because it was more stable (until roughly SP2 came out, which basically was an entirely new OS released as a service pack). Windows 7, which was Vista's equivalent to SP2 also has some fans. Heck, I'd even personally argue that Windows ME has some niceties not seen in…

> I remember when people were deriding Windows XP for being "Fisher-Price" in appearance and preferring to run Windows 2000 because it was more stable

Yeah, most people apparently never noticed the Control Panel setting in XP where you could with one click activate the W95/NT4/W2K interface in stead of the "Fisher-Price" one. Worked in Vista and Windows 7 too, but there they started to remove ever more of the detailed UI customisation settings from the Control Panel. (For a while, you could change them by editing the Registry, but towards the end of W7's lifetime, at least some of those didn't take effect any more.)

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#900

Post by CRConrad »

masklinn wrote: post #291
lstamour wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything old is new again? I remember when people were deriding Windows XP for being "Fisher-Price" in appearance and preferring to run Windows 2000 because it was more stable (until roughly SP2 came out, which basically was an entirely new OS released as a service pack). Windows 7, which was Vista's equivalent to SP2 also has some fans. Heck, I'd even personally argue that Windows ME has some niceties not seen in…

> Everything old is new again? I remember when people were deriding Windows XP for being "Fisher-Price" in appearance and preferring to run Windows 2000 because it was more stable That’s more of a truth universally acknowledged. XP was goofy then, it’s goofy now, and it was goofy at every instant between.

> XP was goofy then, it’s goofy now, and it was goofy at every instant between.

Only if you didn't/don't know how to use it. Like, for instance, where to click to make it look like W95/NT4/W2K.

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