Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality • Hacker News Board

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#21

Post by cynicalkane » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 4:15 AM UTC

softsound wrote: post #20

cynicalkane wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this harmoniousness operates in more subtle ways, too. I'm playing through the new Zelda game, Tears of the Kingdom, and it's a lot of fun, but there's something that doesn't quite click... like the UI is a behavorial engagement layer over the game, and not part of the game itself. Like you can never be completely in the world because something outside is holding your hand all the way. The 16- through 64- bit…

The UI for Tears of the Kingdom has been quite annoying to me in this regard but so many aspects of that game were just troublesome. It's still fun, but the story and characters make no sense, the UI is modern and lifeless. They went into the weeds of the gameplay, you can see that's where they put their energy. I've been disappointed in a lot of the directions... It's just bad furries left and right. This game would…

I think this is also interesting in the direction of the OP's opinion. The new Zelda, for all its AAA chops, has in its main storyline the writing and directing of a bafflingly terrible anime. Incongruously, the story concept itself is compelling, and the scriptwriting for the game's many side characters is verbose (conventionally for Zelda) but otherwise cromulent.

I kind of wonder if something internal happened that the original article is describing. Side NPCs are designed by game designers, so probably written by them or people close to them. The game's concept is probably worked on closely with the top people in charge. But for the main story's execution, one might imagine there's no organizational requirement that the guys in charge have to have a clue how to write or direct a game or even any clue how to write or direct at all.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#22

Post by BeetleB » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 4:19 AM UTC

I just got done reading Sid Meier's Memoir! He also touts the importance of being a generalist. You can have programming as your primary expertise, but you should have a bare minimal competence in both audio and graphics. On a number of occasions, he'd have a vision for one aspect of his game that the whole team was against, and the way he would convince them would be to make a working prototype of that feature. The audio/graphics would be poor, but they needed to be good enough to demonstrate it and have his team members play.

He could get underlings to execute on his vision, but he felt that if they didn't believe in it, they likely would put a lot less effort than he would.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#23

Post by nitwit005 » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 4:26 AM UTC

The generalist's resume looks worse. They have 2 years experience with (insert role here), compared to the other guy who has 8, because they've worked in multiple roles.

Some industries have realized they want some people who have multiple skills, such as the "full stack engineer" roles, but it seems rather more common to prefer someone who precisely fits into the specialist role they defined.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#24

Post by Justsignedup » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 4:33 AM UTC

nitwit005 wrote: post #23

The generalist's resume looks worse. They have 2 years experience with (insert role here), compared to the other guy who has 8, because they've worked in multiple roles. Some industries have realized they want some people who have multiple skills, such as the "full stack engineer" roles, but it seems rather more common to prefer someone who precisely fits into the specialist role they defined.

Hell, I experience this a lot. My experience is doing a lot of things, and being a force multiplier. However you go to a larger company, and suddenly they're looking for very specific experience doing specific scaling that I never got to do in all my roles, boom, it is terrible for my resume. And many young people see this and just decide that let's just focus on that, and make a great resume, rather than try to be useful.

I could have come into a job and say "okay, I know back end, let me focus on that" but instead I spent a day installing a shitty data pipeline that more or less took us through the next 4 years of data analytical needs for almost no cost. Etc.

It is just how it is. I even read a post on HN about a decade ago about how a guy was hire #1, was instrumental in the growth of a company, and when it was purchased was pushed out because they didn't need a generalist anymore, they needed a specialist. And so he decided to drop the generalist role and focus entirely on one technical aspect to the benefit of his career.

So while I agree with Tim, I also have to say, as someone in the thick of it, there's no good way out. Unless you want to keep working for Seed / Series A startups, fingers crossed they sell or you won't make that okay payoff.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#25

Post by chongli » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 4:35 AM UTC

croes wrote: post #4

Is it even possible nowadays to be a generalist? In science something similar happened. There was a time where some people knew pretty much in every science field, chemistry, physics, biology etc. but the amount of knowledge grew and it become impossible to know enough in every field. Maybe game development isn't any different. You either become an expert in on field or your knowledge is to superficial to actually he…

Look at Stardew Valley. One person (Eric Barone aka ConcernedApe) designed the game, wrote all the code (including the engine from scratch), designed all of the characters from concept sketches to final in-game art, wrote all the story and dialogue, created all of the sound effects, composed and recorded all the music with an original soundtrack of over one hundred pieces of music.

The game has since sold more than 20 million copies and some publications have called it the greatest game of all time. An indie game by one person!

Generalists absolutely can succeed today!

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#26

Post by mlyle » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 4:37 AM UTC

croes wrote: post #4

Is it even possible nowadays to be a generalist? In science something similar happened. There was a time where some people knew pretty much in every science field, chemistry, physics, biology etc. but the amount of knowledge grew and it become impossible to know enough in every field. Maybe game development isn't any different. You either become an expert in on field or your knowledge is to superficial to actually he…

> Is it even possible nowadays to be a generalist?

Stardew Valley guy did pretty much everything himself. Game design, programming, music, art.

Which, it's an indie game... but clearly if he can do the whole project himself, someone on a AAA team can have cross-disciplinary skills and translate.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#27

Post by brandensilva » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 4:39 AM UTC

I tell you what, the Diablo 4 game is a perfect example of disjointedness that comes from pure specialists with little to no one who is a generalist that can bridge departments together in a way that makes for a better game and experience. And while they have made strides to implementing much of the community feedback for Season 2 many months later after much of the gamers have left, it isn't the same thing as having a leader who already gets the cross disciplinary shortcomings that resulted in such a poor end game that was out of touch and underwhelming. Something only a generalist leader with some authority, gaming experience, gaming systems and design, and passion could pull off.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#28

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 4:44 AM UTC

croes wrote: post #4

Is it even possible nowadays to be a generalist? In science something similar happened. There was a time where some people knew pretty much in every science field, chemistry, physics, biology etc. but the amount of knowledge grew and it become impossible to know enough in every field. Maybe game development isn't any different. You either become an expert in on field or your knowledge is to superficial to actually he…

[deleted]

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#29

Post by dilyevsky » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 4:46 AM UTC

nitwit005 wrote: post #23

The generalist's resume looks worse. They have 2 years experience with (insert role here), compared to the other guy who has 8, because they've worked in multiple roles. Some industries have realized they want some people who have multiple skills, such as the "full stack engineer" roles, but it seems rather more common to prefer someone who precisely fits into the specialist role they defined.

It’s just less work for management and less politically threatening to have highly-specialized engs with disjoint skillsets. Divide et impera

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#30

Post by TheRoque » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 4:49 AM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #26

croes wrote: post #4

Is it even possible nowadays to be a generalist? In science something similar happened. There was a time where some people knew pretty much in every science field, chemistry, physics, biology etc. but the amount of knowledge grew and it become impossible to know enough in every field. Maybe game development isn't any different. You either become an expert in on field or your knowledge is to superficial to actually he…

> Is it even possible nowadays to be a generalist? Stardew Valley guy did pretty much everything himself. Game design, programming, music, art. Which, it's an indie game... but clearly if he can do the whole project himself, someone on a AAA team can have cross-disciplinary skills and translate.

I'm not sure it's a good example... Stardew Valley as a technical feat is pretty average, there's nothing fancy. In fact the game could have been made 20 years ago with this looks. Comparing it to AAA is really far from the truth, because modern 3D game dev is much much much more complicated.