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The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

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Re: The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children's early aptitudes for all these non-trivial skills vary enormously. There's also minimal later consequence. Basically the fact your five year old can multiply and mine can't count properly actually isn't strongly predictive for which of them is going to be a Fields Medal winner. Kids who exhibit interest in acquiring written language skills should be encouraged, but so should kids who are interested in danci…

It sounds like the author didn't even attempt to teach their children how to read prior to entering 1st grade, due to the "unspoken contract between public schools and parents is that schools will teach their children to read." Seems nuts to me, I thought the unspoken contract is that parents read to their kids at night and teach them to read at the same time. I guess the author thinks only rich parents can do that (…

Teaching is a skill, which is why we don't ordinarily just let random people off the street start teaching kids. So you may not be any good at it.

Also the kids vary a lot in what they're interested in and what they exhibit a natural aptitude for. You seem to suppose that all the world's four year olds want to learn to read and are naturally good at that, but, the evidence strongly disagrees. If you only needed, say, 10% of your population as literate scribes then relying on this approach would work, but our society is predicated on an overwhelming majority of literate adults.

Re: The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

#82
post #49
post #17

English as a language doesn't help, being a disaster for learning to read. My native Swedish is annoying and hard enough for my kids and it's a paragon of logic and consistency compared to English.

Native english speaker here -- while I understand it's easy to come up with lists that show off the worst inconsistencies, I honestly think of those as the exception rather than the rule. Can you list out some of the most common, worst issues you see with english? I'm really curious.

In case you haven't seen it before, check out the chaos poem: https://ncf.idallen.com/english.html

Re: The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

#83

Three thoughts, Is it really true that 1 in 4 schools stopped teaching kids to associate sounds with letters so they could sound out words? That sounds so insane it beggars belief. If that's true then no wonder people don't trust schools; trust isn't warranted. But the idea is so insane on the face of it that I have trouble believing it. Secondly, if 1 in 4 schools did this and half of the students in these schools f…

> Is it really true that 1 in 4 schools stopped teaching kids to associate sounds with letters so they could sound out words? That sounds so insane it beggars belief.

It's way worse than that. The "1 in 4" amount is for one particular way of doing it.

Here's an older article about the topic in general: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/balanced-literacy-phonic...

> The debate — often called the “reading wars” — is generally framed as a battle between two distinct views. On one side are those who advocate for an intensive emphasis on phonics: understanding the relationships between sounds and letters, with daily lessons that build on each other in a systematic order. On the other side are proponents of approaches that put a stronger emphasis on understanding meaning, with some sporadic phonics mixed in. Balanced literacy is one such example.

> [..]

> In a 2019 survey of 674 early-elementary and special education teachers from around the United States, 72 percent said their schools use a balanced literacy approach, according to the Education Week Research Center, a nonprofit organization in Bethesda, Md. The implementation of balanced literacy, however, varies widely, especially in how much phonics is included, the survey found. That variation is probably preventing lots of kids from learning to read as well as they could, decades of research suggests.

Balanced literacy is one way of deemphasizing phonics, and was at 72% in 2019. The "1 in 4" amount is one particular curriculum for doing balanced literacy.

Re: The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's realism: There is no authoritarian communist party of the English speaking world which may impose the kind of reform you proposed, so your idea is thankfully dead on arrival. You clearly covet that kind of power though, which is disturbing. If the scope of the change you're proposing is limited to petty changes like color to colour or vice versa, then I'm confident that your changes would be ineffectual at imp…

Whoa, as the Brits say "Honi soit qui mal y pense"! Your hermeneutic skills seem a mite lacking today. Did you miss my ironic comment on the PRC imposition of simplified characters: "to my private despair"? I do loathe them and salute Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and Hong Kong for resisting their use. Then, too, PRC Chinese pinyin (Chang -> Zhang, Chin -> Qin etc) is especially ugly. Nevertheless, it's hard to deny th…

You claim the PRC's imposed language changes are "to your private despair" as you publicly extol the supposed practical virtue of what they did and hold it up as a model for what you'd like done to English. You offer up token criticism of what the PRC did then lead immediately into "Nevertheless..." praise for the supposed benefits of what they did. I have seen this manner of duplicitous authoritarian apologia many times before, you aren't half as clever as you think.

Far from making things easier for children, you aim to make it far harder for them to access their cultural heritage by deliberately neglecting to teach them the language skills needed to access all extant English literature. I don't believe for an instant that this has escaped your consideration. You wish to deface the past so you can rewrite history; it's a form of book burning.

And structural racism? I guarantee you that any English speaking family with the means to do so would have their children privately taught to read traditional modern English, even if they had to do it themselves personally. You would create an underclass of quasi-literate English speakers, how is that supposed to address structural inequality? What you propose is not intended to promote equality, drop the bullshit.

Re: The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa, as the Brits say "Honi soit qui mal y pense"! Your hermeneutic skills seem a mite lacking today. Did you miss my ironic comment on the PRC imposition of simplified characters: "to my private despair"? I do loathe them and salute Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and Hong Kong for resisting their use. Then, too, PRC Chinese pinyin (Chang -> Zhang, Chin -> Qin etc) is especially ugly. Nevertheless, it's hard to deny th…

You claim the PRC's imposed language changes are "to your private despair" as you publicly extol the supposed practical virtue of what they did and hold it up as a model for what you'd like done to English. You offer up token criticism of what the PRC did then lead immediately into "Nevertheless..." praise for the supposed benefits of what they did. I have seen this manner of duplicitous authoritarian apologia many t…

[deleted]

Re: The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

#86
post #49
post #17

English as a language doesn't help, being a disaster for learning to read. My native Swedish is annoying and hard enough for my kids and it's a paragon of logic and consistency compared to English.

Native english speaker here -- while I understand it's easy to come up with lists that show off the worst inconsistencies, I honestly think of those as the exception rather than the rule. Can you list out some of the most common, worst issues you see with english? I'm really curious.

Sure, they're the exception, but the sheer volume of exceptions is staggering compared to Swedish (and Swedish is pretty bad imo!).

Look at the simple sentence I wrote naturally above. There are so many violations of "sounding out" logic there! "Sure" should reasonably be spelled "shur", "they're" is a big topic in itself, c vs s spelling is all over the place, silent e at the end of words randomly, "compared" has a silent e IN the word because you have to know that it comes from "compare". And writing this explanation of the problems, I had to use even more words that are illogical, like: sentence, wrote, there (not counting words with c for s).

Re: The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the author didn't even attempt to teach their children how to read prior to entering 1st grade, due to the "unspoken contract between public schools and parents is that schools will teach their children to read." Seems nuts to me, I thought the unspoken contract is that parents read to their kids at night and teach them to read at the same time. I guess the author thinks only rich parents can do that (…

Teaching is a skill, which is why we don't ordinarily just let random people off the street start teaching kids. So you may not be any good at it. Also the kids vary a lot in what they're interested in and what they exhibit a natural aptitude for. You seem to suppose that all the world's four year olds want to learn to read and are naturally good at that, but, the evidence strongly disagrees. If you only needed, say,…

> Teaching is a skill, which is why we don't ordinarily just let random people off the street start teaching kids.

We do in fact. Parents (what you term "random people off the street") are expected to take an active role in educating their children. Ask public school teachers in America what frustrates them the most and the two top answers will be their administrators and parents who aren't involved in the education of their children. Parents like the article author who think there is a "unspoken contract" that schools will handle all education are the bane of teachers. Teachers hate people like this. I have several school teachers in my family and they all rant nonstop about parents like this.

If a parent tries and fails to teach their child how to read before the first grade, that's fine. They can let the teachers know that and the teachers can start giving that child special attention right away. But a parent who doesn't even try because they think the education of their child is the sole responsibility of the school are the kind of parents that teachers hate. It's neglect, not legally actionable neglect but certainly neglect nevertheless.

By the time a child gets to the first grade they are already 6 or 7 years old and the window for easy reading acquisition is almost closed. The article author found this out too late and now her daughter still struggles to read. Incidentally...

> When it became clear that my daughter was also among the roughly half of all kids who will not read fluidly without explicit phonics instruction, I left my job, in part to help. [...] My daughter’s progress has been slower, perhaps because her tutoring took place online.

She left her job to help her daughter learn to read, yet her daughter is being tutored ineffectually on the internet. Why isn't she tutoring her daughter in person, if she left work to help? Because...

> I left my job, in part to help. I also embarked on a doomed crusade to persuade our school’s administration that—

Her idea of "leave work to help" apparently means leave work so she has more time to write angry emails at the school. The teachers must absolutely hate her.

Yeah I get it, not everybody knows how to teach kids to read, but she took off work for this so she should have the time to figure it out. She should go to a public library and tell a librarian that she wants to use the phonics method to teach her child how to read. Librarians can direct her to appropriate books and probably give her a ton of supporting material as well. But she's not going to do this because she's locked into the mentality that teaching her kid to read isn't a job for her. She wants schools or internet tutors to do it for her, and when that doesn't work she takes to writing articles complaining about the situation instead of doing it herself. Meanwhile the days tick away and her daughter becomes less and less likely to ever read well.

Re: The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa, as the Brits say "Honi soit qui mal y pense"! Your hermeneutic skills seem a mite lacking today. Did you miss my ironic comment on the PRC imposition of simplified characters: "to my private despair"? I do loathe them and salute Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and Hong Kong for resisting their use. Then, too, PRC Chinese pinyin (Chang -> Zhang, Chin -> Qin etc) is especially ugly. Nevertheless, it's hard to deny th…

You claim the PRC's imposed language changes are "to your private despair" as you publicly extol the supposed practical virtue of what they did and hold it up as a model for what you'd like done to English. You offer up token criticism of what the PRC did then lead immediately into "Nevertheless..." praise for the supposed benefits of what they did. I have seen this manner of duplicitous authoritarian apologia many t…

Thou dost maketh a most excellent argument, yet methinks thou mightst have carried thy reason to its just termination. The grandeur of the English tongue did attain its apogee in the time of Shakespeare; therefore, 'tis meet that we should converse and pen our words in the idiom of that age, rather than employ the clumsy, degenerate form that hath dwindled through the succeeding years.

Re: The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim the PRC's imposed language changes are "to your private despair" as you publicly extol the supposed practical virtue of what they did and hold it up as a model for what you'd like done to English. You offer up token criticism of what the PRC did then lead immediately into "Nevertheless..." praise for the supposed benefits of what they did. I have seen this manner of duplicitous authoritarian apologia many t…

Thou dost maketh a most excellent argument, yet methinks thou mightst have carried thy reason to its just termination. The grandeur of the English tongue did attain its apogee in the time of Shakespeare; therefore, 'tis meet that we should converse and pen our words in the idiom of that age, rather than employ the clumsy, degenerate form that hath dwindled through the succeeding years.

[deleted]

Re: The Decades-Long Travesty That Made Millions of Americans Mistrust Their Schools

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, far from it. My point is that the Korean alphabet (essentially 24 symbols, arranged into syllables) is easy enough to learn in a day or two, so that clueless foreigners, such as me, can begin to sound out road signs and menus quickly, without a clue usually to what it means. By contrast, the disconnect between the Roman alphabet and the English sounds it encodes is a mess. We need a more rational alphabet tailore…

The words to describe what you want are "Orthographic reform". There will be no further English orthographic reform. The last successful reform was Webster in the 19th century. Webster didn't make drastic changes, yet he's why Americans and British people spell words differently centuries later. Changes to orthography are much harder once you have printing and then again once you have mass literacy, because now your…

There have been many successful orthographic reforms in many languages, including recently (1996 for German). It probably can’t succeed in English, because no English-speaking country has any culture or history of state language regulation, and even if they did, it’d be tough to get them all to cooperate. Also, the most powerful English-speaking country is unable to meaningfully reform anything because of its deadlocked and hyper-polarized political system. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible in general. For German only Germany, Austria and Switzerland had to agree, all of which, unlike the US, have normally functioning political and administrative systems.
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