61–69 of 69 posts
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there's also no empathy "what!? I was able to save on 1000usd/mo... with a kid!" assets are either greater than your liabilities, or they're not. the dollar amounts aren't really relevant.
Being poor does not require being in debt. In fact it seems much more important to stay out of debt when poor.
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From your description, you literally weren't poor even by the context of the netherlands, at least using the dictionary definition of the word. [ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/poor ] You might have been at the lowest income level, but society ensured you met no reasonable definitions of the word, correct? You had what you needed, even by the high standards of the society you were in. That is a good thing…
By that definition nobody is poor, which makes the word kind of useless, which means the definition changes. Which is definitely not how people think of themselves (as OP so helpfully told us). I was wondering if this is just a case of a different definition for the word poor, and I find that the equivalent word in Dutch (arm) is defined as: “Not having a lot of something, especially money.” Which was definitely the…
You said - you did not lack for the necessities. Not even housing! Nor schooling. Nor food. Not healthcare. Nor basic entertainment. Nor safety. Not even by the standards of the area, which were high. And it wasn’t at risk - it was a stable and reliable thing.
Poor people do lack these things. It’s part of the definition. I know, I’ve been there.
And I wasn’t very poor (but poor - issues with clothing, food, healthcare, housing sometimes), but I had friends who were very poor. Some didn’t end up growing up because of it. Some ended up growing up in a way they’re still in jail.
You were just in a very well protected bubble, which is awesome. But almost no one else is.
If you go to any society that isn’t in that kind of bubble (China, India, most of the US, Eastern Europe, Russia, 95% of Africa and South America), the difference is obvious. You were in a place that that ‘cliff’ just didn’t exist. Society pulled out all the stops and filled it in with cement.
Which is awesome for you!
Some of us grew up staring over that Cliff every day though, and that is where this discussion is coming from. Most people (even/especially rich people) in those societies are acutely aware of its existence, even if they work hard to stay very far away from it.
There is a line where needs aren’t possible to get met. Where it’s a hard, sometimes fast downward spiral to actual death, imprisonment, etc.
Where it’s a constant desperate scramble to have the basics necessary to survive, and often some of them just aren’t there sometimes, but they show up somehow just enough you somehow make it through. But man does it suck.
And that’s not even talking about actual poverty. Or what happens when a primary caregiver gets cancer. Or ODs.
>”By all financial measures, we were poor.” >”But here’s the thing: I never felt poor.” >”I had everything I needed and wanted. I had all the resources I required to do well at school too, so I never felt underprivileged there either.” This is written by someone who doesn’t understand that they were not poor. Poor is only eating 3/7 days a week. Poor is not owning pyjama’s, underwear or socks. Poor is not having scho…
Sounds like a no true scotsman: "if you didn't feel poor, you're not poor enough to count."
> Our apartment was small, my mom prepared food for a tiny catering company, and my dad was abroad trying to get his small business off the ground. By all financial measures, we were poor. A family with dual income that can afford for one member to live abroad while starting their small business isn't what most people would call poor. At best they were lower middle class en route to upper middle class. Fuck "feeling…
There was a popular submission to HN a few years ago that really opened my eyes to how having a low income can cause problems to compound, making things exponentially worse. An example the author gives of this is car problems: people with low incomes often have older cars that are more likely to have issues. If their car breaks down, there's a chance they can't afford repairs, which means they're unable to commute to…
Since there are often multiple things stacked up that are slightly less urgent that you might expect they'd use savings for, there's no way in this life to get ahead enough to have savings. Something will always come along (if not for you, for your family or a close friend) that you must use those savings for, should you have them, but which you could scrape by without or using a loan if you didn't have savings. This results in a lot of poor people having no habit of savings or aggressively paying down debt, which imparts difficulty in climbing out of this cyclic trap once they do get a better job.
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Yeah the linked post rubbed me the wrong way too. I don't know anyone who grew up poor who didn't know they were poor. Not being able to afford vacations or nice things isn't a sign of being poor Being poor is dealing with housing instability, untreated mental illness, not calling 911 during likely medical emergencies, not being able to afford gas or bus fare to go to work, and generally catastrophe after catastrophe…
> Being poor is dealing with housing instability, untreated mental illness, not calling 911 during likely medical emergencies, not being able to afford gas or bus fare to go to work, and generally catastrophe after catastrophe. People around you are also dealing with various catastrophes: abuse, imprisonment, alcoholism and addiction, and loss after loss after loss. This take on being “poor” bothers me tremendously,…
With all due respect, equating these things with “sub-human” or “irredeemable” is something you’ve done, not something the original commenter did.
I don’t view being an alcoholic or someone imprisoned as sub-human or irredeemable. We grew up poor and many people in my family suffer from these catastrophes, but they aren’t sub-human or irredeemable.
These things happen to everyone, but they happen more frequently to those in poverty.
>”By all financial measures, we were poor.” >”But here’s the thing: I never felt poor.” >”I had everything I needed and wanted. I had all the resources I required to do well at school too, so I never felt underprivileged there either.” This is written by someone who doesn’t understand that they were not poor. Poor is only eating 3/7 days a week. Poor is not owning pyjama’s, underwear or socks. Poor is not having scho…
People claim, "I did not feel poor even if I could not afford the designer clothing..." Like, we are not talking about designer clothing. We are talking about basic clothing. Shoes that do not fit. We are talking about food. Never, never, never going to the doctor unless you are literally dying -- perhaps a broken bone being the only exception... maybe.
Interestingly, things are much better now than in the past for many. Even rural communities are often given the opportunity to have basic necessities. Some families act too proud to accept assistance, but they really should if they have children. They must humble themselves to accept the assistance that is provided because that is the whole point. They reap the benefits now to get themselves back on their feet so they can contribute to others that will also need it.
I see so many people act like they are going to starve if they do not eat two or three meals PER DAY. Yet, they have never actually known true hunger in their life.
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Sounds like a no true scotsman: "if you didn't feel poor, you're not poor enough to count."
I think if you’re genuinely poor, you do feel it. It’s a level of instability that just fundamentally undermines your sense of security on multiple levels (food security, job security, health security etc). Sure there are those that cannot afford the frills in life, or they have to occasionally make sacrifices in order to make ends meet. Even wealthy people probably have times of financial difficulty if they have som…
I think we could consider poor as having all of your needs but none of your wants. And if you have all of your needs and all of your wants, then you are absolutely not poor. I agree with you. You cannot 'be poor but not feel it'.
While it is true that children may not realize they are living in poverty, when they grow up, they look back and then realize the conditions. I can see the point of someone saying they never realized they were poor growing up, but if they look back, they must realize that they felt it but did not realize it at the time.
> Our apartment was small, my mom prepared food for a tiny catering company, and my dad was abroad trying to get his small business off the ground. By all financial measures, we were poor. A family with dual income that can afford for one member to live abroad while starting their small business isn't what most people would call poor. At best they were lower middle class en route to upper middle class. Fuck "feeling…
I feel everything you said here. hug