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Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

theregister.com

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Re: Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

#31

Post by codetrotter »

jeroenhd wrote: post #21
bandrami wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the guy who tried to do that with Python2 and the Python Foundation threatened legal action

When did they do that? All I can find is the Python foundation protecting their trademark. Someone launched "Python 2.8" without any affiliation to the Python Foundation, that's a silly move. Surely everyone in open source learned from the Iceweasel debacle. Something called Tauthon is still being patched every few months for people who can't let go of Python 2.7, though I don't see many contributors to that fork.

> Someone launched "Python 2.8" without any affiliation to the Python Foundation, that's a silly move. […]

> Something called Tauthon is still being patched every few months for people who can't let go of Python 2.7

I was curious and did a search for Python 2.8 and found:

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13144713

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13159144

Clicking on the GitHub repo it seems that in fact the project making unauthorised use of the name “Python 2.8” was the one that ended up changing its name to Tauthon. Neat!

Re: Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

#32

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

johnny22 wrote: post #10
v3ss0n wrote: post #5

Wayland is no way ready - O proper screen recording support - broken screen sharing - No proper global keyboard shortcut - No push to talk support - Their developers are seriously crazy on their design decisions. - Several problems with multiple screens A proper refactor of X11 should have been the way to go and there should had been X12 with modern technologies

get to work,we're counting on you

Or, users could stay on the perfectly fine X, and anyone who wants to push for Wayland adoption can put in the effort to make it not a regression.

Re: Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

#33

Post by charcircuit »

With every year X is still in use more and more tech debt is being built up. It's a big problem in how slow this migration is going. The Linux desktop community should have made this migration its top priority and have had completed it a decade ago. It's sad to see how far behind the Linux desktop is compared to other operating systems.

Re: Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

#34

Post by hsbauauvhabzb »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #32
johnny22 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

get to work,we're counting on you

Or, users could stay on the perfectly fine X, and anyone who wants to push for Wayland adoption can put in the effort to make it not a regression.

Users are at the mercy of developers. If you want to stay and care about maintenance, you’d better hope someone is there maintaining it.

Re: Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

#35

Post by JohnFen »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #6

GNOME (and many others) have spent years telling anyone who has issues with Wayland that lead them to run an X session to report bugs, and has put a lot of effort into fixing those bugs. This seems like a reasonable next step. > This plan seems to The Reg's FOSS Desk to be strong-arming people into adopting Wayland. Or, more reasonably, to maintain less code for alternate paths in favor of fixing the issues that lead…

It's not just about bugs. It's also about functionality X has that Wayland won't.

Re: Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

#36

Post by mcpackieh »

jeroenhd wrote: post #15
v3ss0n wrote: post #5

Wayland is no way ready - O proper screen recording support - broken screen sharing - No proper global keyboard shortcut - No push to talk support - Their developers are seriously crazy on their design decisions. - Several problems with multiple screens A proper refactor of X11 should have been the way to go and there should had been X12 with modern technologies

> - O proper screen recording support Works just fine. I use OBS. > - broken screen sharing Never had any trouble with it. > - No proper global keyboard shortcut > - No push to talk support On its way: https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/pull/711 / https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/#gdbus-org.free... > - Several problems with multiple screens Haven't had any more than on X11, but then again I do…

OBS is absurd bloat. What's the wayland equivalent of `ffmpeg -f x11grab`?

Re: Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

#37

Post by adastra22 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #21
bandrami wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the guy who tried to do that with Python2 and the Python Foundation threatened legal action

When did they do that? All I can find is the Python foundation protecting their trademark. Someone launched "Python 2.8" without any affiliation to the Python Foundation, that's a silly move. Surely everyone in open source learned from the Iceweasel debacle. Something called Tauthon is still being patched every few months for people who can't let go of Python 2.7, though I don't see many contributors to that fork.

This is more than a little ironic since Python stole its name from a British comedy show.

Re: Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

#38

Post by mongol »

enriquto wrote: post #29
JoshTriplett wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, basic functionality is still not there 15 years after release. X11 didn't have what we currently consider "basic functionality" for decades after its release. The design of X11 says that every application connected to your display is completely trusted, hence why it can grab any key (and thus be a keylogger if it wants to be). The design of Wayland starts with the premise that every application connecting to yo…

> The design of Wayland starts with the premise that every application connecting to your display might not be completely trusted, What a strange premise... Do the wayland people have keylocks on all the rooms, drawers and cupboards on their houses? Unix programs by default have access to all files in the user home. That's the main point of running programs after all: to edit your files. Letting these programs see al…

It is not a strange premise. It is the security model that for example Android uses. Unix security model is dated, and it is good that steps are taken in this direction.

Re: Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

#39

Post by michaelmrose »

charcircuit wrote: post #33

With every year X is still in use more and more tech debt is being built up. It's a big problem in how slow this migration is going. The Linux desktop community should have made this migration its top priority and have had completed it a decade ago. It's sad to see how far behind the Linux desktop is compared to other operating systems.

You are wondering why other people didn't invest more of their time working for free for the abstract goal of moving someone else's vision forward.

If they wanted buy in the logical thing would be to provide a something usable and feature complete with wlroots like library inside of the first 5 years rather than producing something nobody would use, claiming it is usable, and then slowly evolving it towards usability slower than duke nukem forever while continually claiming it's ready to rock until the lie slowly becomes increasingly true.

Re: Gnome developer proposes removing the X11 session

#40

Post by grandinj »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #9
v3ss0n wrote: post #5

Wayland is no way ready - O proper screen recording support - broken screen sharing - No proper global keyboard shortcut - No push to talk support - Their developers are seriously crazy on their design decisions. - Several problems with multiple screens A proper refactor of X11 should have been the way to go and there should had been X12 with modern technologies

> proper screen recording support > broken screen sharing Both work perfectly here with pipewire installed. I can do screen recording, and share my screen in video meetings in Firefox. > No proper global keyboard shortcut System-wide keyboard shortcuts already work, through the desktop. The ability for an arbitrary application to request a global keybinding is in progress and expected to become available soon. > No p…

> share my screen in video meetings in Firefox.

Yeah, in limited ways, the wayland functionality is there. But as soon as you step off the most-popular-path even a teensy bit, it breaks.

I am relying on Teamviewer for remote desktop access because the official RDP support breaks in a different way with every minor release.

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