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Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

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Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#121

Post by fy20 »

At my company, I feel the biggest issue is execs don't want to pay more to get good people and don't want to do anything to make it more attractive to work here.

The last person I hired was at the start of this year, and at the time our salary offer was around market average. For this role we (well the execs... I'm pro WFH but not my call) were asking people to be in the office four days a week and work non-standard office hours. Most of the applicants we got were living in cities far away and not willing to relocate - even though the job spec clearly stated this is an in-person role in this city.

One person we interviewed seemed like the only thing they were interested in was growing their Twitch subscriber count. Then we interviewed the person we ended up hiring, who I'm sad to say we only hired because they seemed the least bad - and by that point we were desperate for someone, and worried execs may cut our budget.

Oh and for anyone wondering, the role in question just needed standard frontend React skills. Nothing special.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#122

Post by redhale »

wendyshu wrote: post #42

At my company we put engineers (instead of HR) in charge of job descriptions, resume review, and phone screens and saw a sharp increase in quality of candidates we interviewed.

*This is the way x1000*

Just taking job descriptions as an example, the state of tech job descriptions is an absolute, unbelievable, dumpster fire of an embarrassment.

If you have blatant typos, incorrect/missing information, botched formatting (copy+pasted bullets from Word to Outlook to LinkedIn to the point the formatting is mush), etc, you are going to get candidates of similar quality. I'm sure these job descriptions are written by recruiters/managers who would reject outright a candidate with a similar quality resume.

There is a parody idea along the lines of: if candidates wrote resumes like recruiters/managers write job descriptions.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#123

Post by TrueGeek »

jpp wrote: post #59

We finished a hiring process about 2 months ago, along with two other hires earlier in the year. As a hiring manager, 2023 has been brutal — 1,000:1 application to hire ratio (based on stats in Lever; no exaggeration). I’ve made a point to try to be as open and as fair as possible in our hiring process. We list the salaries up-front in the job description. We create per-hire ”join our team” pages that share a lot mor…

Thanks for sharing that. I love the thought you’ve put into it and the transparency you are giving canidates.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#124

Post by Clubber »

janalsncm wrote: post #112
tester756 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree as hell. Yea, sure, cover letter for some JoeSoft writing crud apps may be weird but for fancier jobs I don't really see problem with cover letters where candidate can share something more human than CV's "i've did blabla" like passion, motivation, etc, etc. And highly motivated employee may be way more valuable than more skilled employee

> highly motivated employee Is there any evidence that writing a cover letter means they will be a motivated employee? What motivates me is the problem that I am solving on the job. I am extremely motivated to solve that specific task. If you ask me to write a cover letter about myself, I have zero motivation to do that because the evaluation criteria are unclear and half the companies don’t read them to begin with.…

>Is there any evidence that writing a cover letter means they will be a motivated employee?

They're at least motivated enough to spend time writing a cover letter.

FWIW, I haven't written a cover letter since 1997, but if it was a company I was interested in, I would write one if I thought they would read it.

Also, consider some smart people haven't acquired the ability of talking on their feet yet, but might be able to show some desirability when given the chance to write. Thomas Jefferson was that way; he wrote beautifully but speeches, not so much.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#125

Post by e12e »

janalsncm wrote: post #113
e12e wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But isn't what both sides should be aiming for a no-bullshit dialog where company explain what they need help doing, applicant explains that they can, how they can help get that done? At some point the candidate needs to invest some time on communication with the specific employer - why waste everyone's time synchronously in first first interview, when it's better for both to waste that time asynchronously?

Ok, in that case you don’t need a lengthy cover letter. The only thing it needs to say is “At my current company I did X. You need X to be done. Hire me and I will do it.” However very few job descriptions give the kind of info which would enable that.

Yes, IMNHO a short (but accurately targeted) cover letter is what serves both parties best.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#126

Post by e12e »

lylejantzi3rd wrote: post #119
e12e wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But isn't what both sides should be aiming for a no-bullshit dialog where company explain what they need help doing, applicant explains that they can, how they can help get that done? At some point the candidate needs to invest some time on communication with the specific employer - why waste everyone's time synchronously in first first interview, when it's better for both to waste that time asynchronously?

You've missed the point completely. What you're talking about only applies to programmers who apply for the job you have listed. The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter when their other options don't have that requirement? They won't apply at all. So, who applies to your open position? Programmers who d…

> Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter

I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either?

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#127

Post by wendyshu »

catlover76 wrote: post #117
JohnFen wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do the same. We also have a sane application process (no long series of interviews, no leetcode, no crazy "competency tests", etc.) And the devs on the team that has the open position have the most influential say as to whether or not we make an offer.

> no crazy "competency tests" I had an SF-based startup to which I applied administer an IQ test as part of their interview process It was really dumb--we're talking literally like 20 questions of "which shape comes next in the sequence", the kind of test administered to children to determine whether they qualify for advanced placement

I thought that was illegal

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#128

Post by catlover76 »

e12e wrote: post #126
lylejantzi3rd wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've missed the point completely. What you're talking about only applies to programmers who apply for the job you have listed. The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter when their other options don't have that requirement? They won't apply at all. So, who applies to your open position? Programmers who d…

> Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either?

> I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs?

If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes.

> Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either?

They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense.

It sounds like you want to filter only for candidates who may or may not be particularly competent, but who are somewhat obsequious, at least during the hiring process. Maybe that works for your business.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#129

Post by kaycey2022 »

1123581321 wrote: post #77
andrewstuart wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This need for a cover letter is essentially asking candidates to tell you how much they love the company and how much they want the job. Why is this important beyond making the company feel loved? As a job applicant I’m not going to invest a minute in your company until you’ve read my resume and expressed an interest. Theres hundreds of companies out there employing who want your time but give nothing back. I know ne…

A cover letter is a place to put relevant information about you that doesn’t go on a resume. If you received a notice that your resume had been read, they liked it, and they wanted a cover letter before an interview, would you submit one?

Maybe rather than a cover letter which seems too open ended and come with its own special kind of stress for some people, companies can just ask candidates to fill out a questionnaire that asks for approaches to specific situations that an employee will have to face in this situation?

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#130

Post by toomanyrichers »

arcatech wrote: post #80
linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

> I've been very lucky, I've not had to apply for many jobs. But when I have, I always wrote a specific cover letter AND customized my resume to the job advert. You're self selecting for people who happen to be as privileged as you are. Maybe that's what you want, but I'm not surprised it's been more difficult than you were expecting.

“Privileged” has become a 4 letter word bandied about only to disparage one’s opponent.

It’s absolute bullshit. What precisely do you mean?

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