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Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

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Re: Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

#151

Post by pcvarmint »

I dropped out before obtaining a degree, but I continued doing my own R&D for the fun of it even when I was not employed in a tech job.

Today after 17 years of a tech job experience, I have a computer laboratory job which usually requires a Ph.D. Over 50% of my coworkers have Ph.D.s, but they don't wear it on their sleeves, and my knowledge and experience is valued just as much as theirs.

My last two employers did not mind the lack of degree -- in one, the recruiter even commented that I could peer up with double-Ph.D's -- her words, not mine. In the other, the HR representative herself doesn't have a degree.

I've had two employers who were interested in me, turn me down because of the degree. They said they could not hire me because the job description said a degree was required, and they cannot NOT discriminate against me on that -- apparently degree requirements are a way to legally get rid of undesireable applicants without it looking like racial or age discrimination. If they dropped the degree requirement they would get more applicants and it would be harder for them to decide who's best, as well as open them up to (in their view) more discrimination lawsuits. So they use the degree as a legal form of discrimination provided no exceptions are made to it.

Of course the effect of degree requirements, including degree requirements for foreign immigrants, has been degree inflation -- a Ph.D. today is worth what a MS was 30 years ago.

I have thought about getting a degree by examination, e.g., CLEP, or trying to get an honorary degree (I have professor friends), but I refuse to go back to undergraduate classrooms with lecture, homework and exam style learning. It doesn't work for me, even if done online. My learning process is different. I can and do read books -- I have over 500 math/CS books in my personal library -- but not in a linear way in a short semester.

Re: Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

#152

Post by kbolino »

prophetjohn wrote: post #87
why-el wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really respect your decision to drop out. I am a senior and I decided to take my last semester off and do a long internship. I am lucky to have found a good company, but that fight you had is still going on in my head. Most of the problems I solve at work are new to me, and nothing from my university is relevant, including the algorithms class. For instance, I have never used git in school. In fact, nobody has even…

Sounds like you guys should have gone to technical school or majored in CIS or something. Learning how to use version control is not in the scope of a Computer Science curriculum.

It would not kill anyone to offer one class, just 3 credits out of the 120 in an undergraduate career, about the practice of creating software. FWIW even my CS minor (30 credits) had such a course.

The course was structured around a single group project. We were assigned to a "customer" in the department, and we were responsible for soliciting (and formalizing) requirements, developing a design, implementing it, and testing it. Revision control was not optional, and we were taught how to use it. Our grade was based upon how well we completed the task, how well we presented ourselves to the instructor and "customer", and how we were assessed by our fellow teammates.

No one suffered any loss to their theoretical background, the universe didn't explode, and everyone left the class a better programmer than before. Since a CS degree is still, rightly or wrongly, considered the sole requirement for many programming jobs, I think it was time well spent.

Re: Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

#153

Post by eli »

chris_j wrote: post #126
eli wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessarily agree with the practice, but the argument I've heard is that if you only want people with a Bachelor's or higher, you have to say that you want a Master's.

What do you think the reason for that is? That those people without a bachelor's degree will be really discouraged from applying if you state that a master's is required?

Yes, that's my understanding. Virtually all jobs say "Bachelor's required" so the phrase has lost much of its meaning.

Re: Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

#154

Post by smallegan »

sunsu wrote: post #66
smallegan wrote: post #49

I marked yes although actually I have a CIS (computer information systems) degree. Does anyone else fall into this category?

No offense, but CIS (Business Degree) can in no way be considered the same as CS (Engineering Degree).

You're not offending anyone, but I can tell you that my Masters in CS was far less useful in the real world than my Bachelors in CIS.

Re: Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

#155

Post by alecco »

hughw wrote: post #81
alecco wrote: post #33

Dropped out out of frustration with ridiculous emphasis on calculus and extremely poor algorithms teachers. I don't regret dropping out, I regret wasting a couple of years fighting that. But almost 15 years later I now find algorithms teaching in top universities completely out of touch with reality. Hardware changed drastically in the last decade and it seems they just gave up. It's turning into a cult of big-O theo…

You dropped out of college because of a "ridiculous emphasis on calculus" yet you are able to track and form opinions on the quality of "algorithms teaching in top universities"? I doubt it.

Thanks for the ad hominem.

I like calculus and math in general. But undergrad CS emphasis should be information theory, algorithms and discrete mathematics. They never used calculus to analyze algorithms, not even once. I've only seen it used on books (Knuth or Rivest et al.) In the majority of universities CS is still dominated by the same teaching body from math or engineering.

Since now we have videos of classes at top universities, there's no benefit of the doubt anymore.

Re: Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

#156

Post by alecco »

hughw wrote: post #90
alecco wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse. The joke "MongoDB is web-scale" reminds me of this growing cargo-cult full of cocky CS graduates. Edit: thanks for the anonymous downvotes validating my point; dissent must be suppressed.

I'm guessing CS dropouts are just as vocal in support of the nosql of the moment.

Let's assume for a moment the majority of nosql supporters are CS dropouts. That doesn't say the majority of CS dropouts are supporters of nosql. You are falling for the base rate fallacy. That's exactly the kind of highly relevant concepts I've never seen taught for CS. Thanks.

While we are at it, probability theory should have a much stronger emphasis than calculus for CS. It's only seen on graduate CS on most universities. In my uni, we had 2.5 years of calculus and a miserable .5yr stats/probability course, wich was mostly stats and it was one of the less emphasized subjects. Why is it like that? I bet because engineering (and mainstream math) focus is somewhere else.

Re: Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

#157

Post by surement »

eli wrote: post #153
chris_j wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think the reason for that is? That those people without a bachelor's degree will be really discouraged from applying if you state that a master's is required?

Yes, that's my understanding. Virtually all jobs say "Bachelor's required" so the phrase has lost much of its meaning.

Probably because, so often, it really doesn't mean anything. This phrase is usually put there by HR departments; most hiring managers couldn't care less about an applicant's (lack of formal) education if the person can actually do the work, which, in computer science, is a lot of people with no degrees.

Re: Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

#158

Post by [deleted] »

eli wrote: post #153
chris_j wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think the reason for that is? That those people without a bachelor's degree will be really discouraged from applying if you state that a master's is required?

Yes, that's my understanding. Virtually all jobs say "Bachelor's required" so the phrase has lost much of its meaning.

[deleted]

Re: Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

#159

Post by why-el »

prophetjohn wrote: post #87
why-el wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really respect your decision to drop out. I am a senior and I decided to take my last semester off and do a long internship. I am lucky to have found a good company, but that fight you had is still going on in my head. Most of the problems I solve at work are new to me, and nothing from my university is relevant, including the algorithms class. For instance, I have never used git in school. In fact, nobody has even…

Sounds like you guys should have gone to technical school or majored in CIS or something. Learning how to use version control is not in the scope of a Computer Science curriculum.

Actually it should. Else those team projects would not make sense. I was asked to work in teams repeatedly, and I see this recurring in a lot of classes I stumble upon on the web. Try it yourself, pick a popular computer science class that gives the students the ability to work in teams and try to find a reference to version control.

Re: Poll: Do you have a CS degree?

#160

Post by AdamTReineke »

mcherm wrote: post #148

For what it's worth, I do a lot of hiring of programmers. A candidate's schooling MIGHT make a tiny difference in whether I notice their resume, but most anything that stands out will get you past that filter. Once you get to the interview stage, schooling makes essentially NO difference to me (although the things you LEARNED in school will make a difference).

How does your hiring process handle drop outs?
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