Scrollbars are becoming a problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#791

Post by regularfry » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 11:35 PM UTC

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #625

regularfry wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this, with the addition that you should have the option of panning in both dimensions from a single toolbar widget if the document supports it. I've seen that implemented but never with the arrow buttons together rather than at opposite ends. > - Wide, clearly visible and easy to hit. Way back in the day, there used to be a field of study called Human Computer Interaction, where people would learn about things…

> Way back in the day, there used to be a field of study called Human Computer Interaction, where people would learn about things like Fitt's Law... Which, despite the name, is not a law and should not be called such. I've had so many people claim that I'm wrong for disliking the global menu in MacOS because "Fitt's Law" says it's better. And yet, it's still less usable for me despite the claim that this "law" makes…

The law is that the thing at the corner of the screen has the fastest seek time, because it has the largest available area. That's not subjective.

You might not agree with what is occupying that spot but that says nothing about the physiology of selecting it.

I certainly agree that the global menu, being almost never used day to day, is a stunningly pointless use of that space. It ought to have been handed over to foreground applications, exactly because of Fitt's Law.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#792

Post by pseudalopex » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 11:37 PM UTC

deepspace wrote: post #769

Jenda_ wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Locate is for file names, not file contents.

ripgrep for contents

ripgrep is fast for what it is. But indexes are faster.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#793

Post by pseudalopex » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 11:41 PM UTC

magicalhippo wrote: post #405

zorrolovsky wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's amazing how much damage these cargo-cult UI/UX morons have done in the past ten years. They threw out several decades of usability pioneered by real HID experts for something that looks pretty but doesn't fucking work for a lot of people. No need to throw insults. I love HN because it's one of the few places where civil debate trumps the hateful tone of all other platforms. I fundamentally agree with usability…

> In UI terms they're both ignorant and opinionated. These are the UX/UI cargo-cult morons you're looking for. It seems in the software world we've yet to establish our own version of industrial design[1] so "regular" designers gets used. And leaders who decide aren't technical so they don't get usability. I think the lack of competition also make the terrible designs seem successful. I'm not using Teams because it l…

The software version of industrial design was HCI. Human computer interaction.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human%E2%80%93computer_interac...

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#794

Post by pseudalopex » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 11:47 PM UTC

albertzeyer wrote: post #732

JohnFen wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You actually don't need any window border at all then Even if that was a great solution for everybody, you still need a window border. Or at least I do. I need that visual separation from all of the other windows on my desktop, and I need it to be thicker than one or two damned pixels.

I use a window shadow for that. The shadow is maybe 10-20 pixels or so.

Some windows are dark.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#795

Post by Jenda_ » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 11:47 PM UTC

pseudalopex wrote: post #792

deepspace wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ripgrep for contents

ripgrep is fast for what it is. But indexes are faster.

Additionally, I would expect indexing to extract text contents from non-plain-text formats. (such as Recoll does)

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#796

Post by cmiller1 » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 11:52 PM UTC

quantified wrote: post #764

marcus_holmes wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am coming to the opinion that Windows XP was the maximum usable interface, and we should have stopped there [0]. But then, I might just be old and telling the kids to get off my lawn. [0] this is definitely true for Windows. All subsequent versions of Windows have had worse UX.

I'd go with Win 7. Mac is all secret handshakes, nothing discoverable, terrible af keyboard-primary work. Windows was very good at letting you stay on the keyboard. In the spirit of scroll bar discussion, the standard of Ctrl-Home, Crtl-End, Shift-Ctrl-Home and Shift-Ctrl-End are so good. No such "begin of doc" and "end of doc" on a Mac except if an app wills it.

Cmd up or down arrow

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#797

Post by pseudalopex » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 11:55 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #484

jwells89 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ironic thing about icons losing their color and detail is that it happened right as high DPI displays began to become commonplace in consumer hardware. We have these amazing screens with barely visible pixels and excellent color reproduction being wasted on rendering monochrome lines.

There's also an increasing prevalence and popularity of e-ink displays. Though some of these are colour-capable, most are monochrome, and I've definitely had challenges negotiating apps and content which use colour as a key differentiator.

I doubt Apple began removing color years ago for a display technology they never used.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#798

Post by pseudalopex » Sat, Oct 14, 2023, 12:13 AM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #481

regularfry wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this, with the addition that you should have the option of panning in both dimensions from a single toolbar widget if the document supports it. I've seen that implemented but never with the arrow buttons together rather than at opposite ends. > - Wide, clearly visible and easy to hit. Way back in the day, there used to be a field of study called Human Computer Interaction, where people would learn about things…

The Windows Start button is/was placed in the bottom left so users could just flick the cursor to the bottom left corner, no need for precise motor control. Could be moved to the top left or right as desired, too. All that went away with Windows 11, though thankfully someone clearly had enough power to say "You are taking my bottom left Start button over my dead body.".

The Start button needed precise aim until Windows XP.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#799

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 14, 2023, 12:16 AM UTC

acuozzo wrote: post #292

rr808 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For my desktop I usually use the wheel.

How do you scroll to the middle or end of an incredibly-long document? e.g., 200+ pages, if printed.

[deleted]

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#800

Post by deprecative » Sat, Oct 14, 2023, 12:17 AM UTC

chefandy wrote: post #754

JohnFen wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because designers and devs don't want to have to do multiple designs. Everyone's aiming for one design that works for everything. The problem is that such a thing is impossible.

Vollying back your flipness-- This sort of reductive assumption about software design is why companies that need people who aren't developers to actually use their products hire interface designers.

Most employers I've had are all about getting engineers to be everything. Designers, infrastructure, QA, UI/UX, and even product/project managers.. everything.