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Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

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Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#251
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New Zealand: At zebra crossings with no traffic island, stop and give way to people walking on any part of the crossing or who are waiting to cross. From: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roadcode/code-for-cycling/intersect... NZ also has courtesy crossings: Courtesy crossings are usually made of bricks or paving or raised above the level of the road. A courtesy crossing is not an official pedestrian crossing, but to be poli…

> The justice system is definitely very unforgiving towards anyone that actually hits a pedestrian. I have to disagree. Where I live in NZ a local elderly couple were run down by an impatient driver turning into a quiet side street. One died, the other was critically injured. The same driver had recently accepted fault for hitting and injuring a motorcyclist. The sentence? 250 hours community work, $15,000 to the fam…

> I might add that the driver was a very wealthy businessman (so the monetary amount is likely insignificant).

This might also be the reason for the light sentence? Not sure about NZ but in many countries it works this way unfortunately.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget how transportation has been one of the key areas of conflict for racial integration and has been used again and again to ensure that black and brown people did not have access to certain areas of cities. Robert Moses being the most egregious direct example, but Plessy v Ferguson enshrining racist segregationist laws around transportation which then provided precedent to spread to other segregationist law…

In India, we have segregation based on cast. In cities, the caste based segregation is not very visible though local politicians usually have much better idea. The government used to do income based segregation or its employees: low income group or LIG homes, HIG homes, etc. Is racial segregation was by design (100% non Whiltes) or just happed due to economic factors (majority of non whites happens to be in this cate…

Racial segregation was literally in law for a long time. When it became illegal, none of the underlying things that had become inherent disappeared overnight.

As an example, banks refused to lend in minority neighborhoods, so unlike for white Americans who used loans to bid up houses owned by white Americans and got wealth that way, Black Americans actually experienced negative housing wealth growth. Those areas are still poor, but now banks don’t lend in them because they’re not profitable, even though the reason they are not profitable is that they were never lent to in the first place.

When Black people managed to build parallel financial systems and economies to provide them wealth, usually they got their properties burned down or firebombed for their trouble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#253
post #220
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Even the concept that the flow of traffic is more important than the pedestrian's flow" Is it? It seems like in the example, both parties are following a signal. Cars must yield to pedestrians in crosswalks. Sure, some places have jaywalking laws when not in a crosswalk (in some cases including implied/unmarked crosswalks), and most require impeding traffic as a component. A few places could move towards common sens…

Pedestrians have to ask to cross the road by pressing a button, so that the usual signal cycle for cars is interrupted, to let them cross. Cars don't have to ask. That means the crossing inherently prioritizes cars, and pedestrians are a second class user.

Cars do have to ask - there are sensors in the pavement to manipulate the signal. Some lights have no sensors and merely time it for each group. Some one way streets are designed to use the same light as the cars to signal parallel foot traffic as well.

How can you explain pedestrians as second class users if they have the right of way and do not have to wait at non-signaled crosswalks?

There seems to be a mix of who gets priority based on things like volume and efficiency, demonstrating that neither pedestrians nor cars are a lower class than the other.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#254
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In any shared transportation space, you need rules for right of way. When two modes of transport want to occupy the same exact space, someone has to be given a priority for the space at any given time. Almost all right of way rules require that the smaller and/or more maneuverable vehicle gives right of way to larger less maneuverable vehicles. Examples of this: Trains have right of way, always. On water, jet skis mu…

This is not how it works in the UK. There is no such thing as "right of way" on a road in the way you have described it. It does not refer to any kind of legal priority of one kind of road user over another. You will sometimes hear irate motorists complaining "you can't do that, I had the right of way!" but it doesn't mean what they think. The "right of way" simply means that the public has a right to use the way, by…

>Recent revisions of the Highway Code put about a hierarchy of road users, but opposite to the one you have put across. Smaller, slower, more vulnerable road users have priority over larger and faster vehicles.

Should we take this to mean that pedestrians may enter the flow of traffic willy nilly and drivers will always be found at fault in a collision? I assume not.

To me what I've been able to find sounds an awful lot like pedestrians are required to exercise due caution, and like basically less strictly worded versions of most US laws. Like for example from these rules https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-pedes...:

"D If traffic is coming, let it pass. Look all around again and listen. Do not cross until there is a safe gap in the traffic and you are certain that there is plenty of time. Remember, even if traffic is a long way off, it may be approaching very quickly."

Or rule 8: "If you have started crossing and traffic wants to turn into the road, you have priority and they should give way (see Rules H2 and 170)."

Which certainly seems to imply that there are times when the pedestrian does not "have priority"

Or this rule, which sounds an awful lot like the rule quoted from New York: " Where there is a crossing nearby, use it. It is safer to cross using a subway, a footbridge, an island, a zebra, pelican, toucan or puffin crossing, or where there is a crossing point controlled by a police officer, a school crossing patrol or a traffic warden. Otherwise choose a place where you can see clearly in all directions. Try to avoid crossing between parked cars (see Rule 14), on a blind bend, or close to the brow of a hill. Move to a space where drivers and riders can see you clearly. Do not cross the road diagonally."

This one sounds an awful lot to me like cars have "right of way" when the amber light is flashing and a pedestrian has not yet entered the cross walk: "Pelican crossings. These are signal-controlled crossings where flashing amber follows the red ‘Stop’ light. You MUST stop when the red light shows. When the amber light is flashing, you MUST give way to any pedestrians on the crossing. If the amber light is flashing and there are no pedestrians on the crossing, you may proceed with caution."

Even from H2 which is the main new thing I see citing the higher pedestrian priorities has "Pedestrians have priority when on a zebra crossing, on a parallel crossing or at light controlled crossings when they have a green signal.", which again certainly seems to say that when not on such a crossing or crossing against the lights that they do not have priority anymore.

>This begs the question. You only need specially designated areas where pedestrians might be, if it is otherwise dangerous for pedestrians to cross the road. Why build roads to be dangerous to pedestrians in the first place?

And yet, the UK is littered with pedestrian crossings. As near as I can tell you have an entire bestiary of different crossing types with different rules and regulations for each. Seems like they should be unnecessary if pedestrians have absolute priority over all other traffic right?

> In the UK, pedestrians are not required to use zebra crossings, nor are they even required to obey a red light at a pelican crossing (it is merely advisory).

This seems heavily contradicted multiple times from what I found above, but then there's also this (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/25/2018...):

"(2)Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) above, regulations under that subsection may be made—

(a)prohibiting pedestrian traffic on the carriageway within 100 yards of a crossing, and "

So that sounds like you absolutely can be compelled by law to use a crossing where one is nearby.

> As a cyclist I find this idea appalling. What you are describing sounds like the Law of the Jungle.

Why? To me it sounds like a law reflecting reality. You could say a pedestrian has the right of way but when a pedestrian tries to occupy the space a bicycle is already or will be within the time that they are unable to safely stop, physics says the pedestrian will lose that fight. That doesn't mean cyclists can ride and just slam through joggers. Everyone is still requires to try to avoid collisions.

It really feels like you have a misunderstanding of what "right of way" means here. This isn't some absolute authority where cyclists may mow down pedestrians in front of them, and cars may mow down cyclists in front of them, and busses may mow down cars and trucks may mow down busses. It's trying to resolve who needs to yield when a collision is likely to occur. As a general rule like I said, the person most able to prevent the collision in the first place is given lower right of way. A car already in a lane has right of way over a car trying to merge into the lane. That isn't carte blanche to simply ram people merging into your lane out of the way, it just means the person wanting to merge has the responsibility to do so safely and not cause a collision, and if they can't merge without causing a collision, they're the one that has to wait.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany pedestrians also always have priority over turning cars when crossing at an intersection, no matter if there is a pedestrian crossing or not.

This is also true in many parts of the US, including California.

Genuinely curious — is there some jurisdiction where the law is "if the pedestrian is in the wrong it's fine to go over them"?

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#256
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a no-brainer that the party to yield should be the one who can yield. Alternative no-brainer - the new entrant to street traffic that doesn't have the handling or control to safely co-habitate the street with existing users shouldn't be allowed onto streets. They should instead be restricted to specific and limited long distance routes that actually take advantage of their ability to travel many miles an hour…

>In short, walk or take a tram to your parked car if you need to drive it to the next town. What does that have to do with what I said? Without allowing vehicles on roads (and the jaywalking laws that came with it), deliveries to the high-density places where people live , or to city centers, would be limited to what can be drawn on a horse and carriage. Those laws specifically benefited those people who live without…

You realize that high-density car-free cities existed for thousands of years before cars were invented?

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh now I know you are a troll. It would be cheaper to build level intersections with traffic lights. Why then are billions spent on wide freeways, exchanges, overpasses when it’s road over road but when it’s about pedestrians then sure, do whatever is cheapest because they’re already on foot, how much of a hurry can they be in?

I'm not a troll. What do you think is cheaper - an overpass or a foot bridge?

Neither. Both cost significantly more to build and maintain than at-grade intersections. That's part of the reason more and more grade separated highways are being demolished and replaced with surface roads.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#258
post #42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, not obeying pedestrian signalling is one of the exceptions. I'd say that's fairly reasonable -- if people cross freely against indicators it messes with the flow of traffic. I've only seen this actually enforced with examples like in the article, outside a busy transit station.

Even the concept that the flow of traffic is more important than the pedestrian's flow is indicative of the change in attitude. Somehow the car has come to be most important while the pedestrian is a nuisance. Both own and pay for the road but the pedestrian is a second class citizen (obviously some people will moan on about road tax and fuel tax, but these taxes don't come close to paying for the road infrastructure…

Pedestrians are traffic too...

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In short, walk or take a tram to your parked car if you need to drive it to the next town. What does that have to do with what I said? Without allowing vehicles on roads (and the jaywalking laws that came with it), deliveries to the high-density places where people live , or to city centers, would be limited to what can be drawn on a horse and carriage. Those laws specifically benefited those people who live without…

You realize that high-density car-free cities existed for thousands of years before cars were invented?

> You realize that high-density car-free cities existed for thousands of years before cars were invented?

Not at the scale we commonly have now. If you have any links to a 2000 year old skyscraper, now would be a good time to post it.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also true in many parts of the US, including California.

Genuinely curious — is there some jurisdiction where the law is "if the pedestrian is in the wrong it's fine to go over them"?

I was interpreting GP as talking about "who is supposed to go first" not "Can I run them over intentionally."

The latter is not allowed anywhere in the US. However, I have seen cops giving a pedestrian a ticket for crossing right next to a giant "No Crossing" sign as they were being loaded into an ambulance. At that particular section of the street the assumption was that the driver did not intentionally hit the pedestrian as there was a blind corner.

Also, I don't know if you saw the footage from a few years back of the self-driving-car hitting the pedestrian in Arizona while the safety driver was on their phone? Without the dash-cam, the driver likely would not have been found at fault, as the cops are likely to believe a driver that says they didn't see a pedestrian crossing in the dark at night until too late.

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