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Scrollbars are becoming a problem

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Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#231

Post by bandrami »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #150
codalan wrote: post #135

It's not just scrollbars. It's the elimination of window borders. Aside from not being able to differentiate one window from another similarly colored window in the background, it's nearly impossible to click and hold on anything along the edge to resize the window. It's the overloading of the title bar with so much shit like search boxes and extraneous buttons that a user has almost no place to grip to move the wind…

I am coming to the opinion that Windows XP was the maximum usable interface, and we should have stopped there [0]. But then, I might just be old and telling the kids to get off my lawn. [0] this is definitely true for Windows. All subsequent versions of Windows have had worse UX.

Same time frame: GNUStep/Windowmaker on the Linux side of things, also something of a high water mark. It's really weird to me how much interfaces have degraded in the past two decades.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#232

Post by pseudalopex »

f33d5173 wrote: post #172
dbetteridge wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the wrong mentality tbh Design for the best accessibility first and foremost, then try and make things look "prettier". Disabilities can affect anyone at any time and shouldn't be an afterthought.

"Accessibility" here refers to one person's very particular disability. You can't possibly predict the entire gamut of disabilities people might face. Trying to do so "first and foremost" is utter madness.

Accessibility here refers to RSI and fine motor control problems. Common disabilities. And studied for computer use already.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#233

Post by wilg »

kyleee wrote: post #105
wilg wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what a gesture is. > If someone among your friends and family has an iOS device, remember how many times you had to show them that certain screens can be scrolled down? I don't know, zero? Maybe let's say once to be charitable. This is not a real problem faced by most people. IMO, this is just people being used to doing it another way.

Don’t underestimate how much pulling the rug out from under people via constant UI churn negatively affects their lives and interactions with computers. Leads to lower confidence, helplessness, etc.

I mean it's been basically one change to the scrollbar in 40 years. And you can turn them on again if you care.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#234

Post by marcus_holmes »

pseudalopex wrote: post #220
marcus_holmes wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am coming to the opinion that Windows XP was the maximum usable interface, and we should have stopped there [0]. But then, I might just be old and telling the kids to get off my lawn. [0] this is definitely true for Windows. All subsequent versions of Windows have had worse UX.

Windows XP couldn't search the start menu.

I didn't say it was perfect ;) Just better than everything that came after it

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#235

Post by masswerk »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #228
masswerk wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I defence of that web site, I do see a vertical scroll bar for this section. But I'm also one of those funny individuals who check that "Show scrollbars" is set to "always" in the system preferences, after each update. (On macOS, it's not the default, but it's still an option.)

true, this might be on me for not specifying that in Firefox

At least on macOS, this is a gloabal system setting, which also applies to any web browsers. (I can't speak on the subject of other OSes/GUIs, though.)

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#236

Post by masswerk »

etrautmann wrote: post #171
masswerk wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's nearly impossible to click and hold on anything along the edge to resize the window. This is what the resize box is/was for. (It's actually draggable edges with no "meat" to them, which introduce the conflict by overloading an element, which is also just a pixel wide.) *) The resize box used to sit below the very bottom of the vertical scrollbar, just below the down arrow button, as a distinct and dedicated ha…

Man it was maddening when the window was taller than the screen and you couldn’t access the one box in the bottom corner to resize it.

Ah, Win98 installation dialogs… :-)

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#237

Post by bandrami »

rr808 wrote: post #196
phkahler wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Maybe scroll bars are kind of obsolete except for visual clues. On mobile maybe. On desktop absolutely not. And in that case it's detrimental for them to be small.

For my desktop I usually use the wheel.

The wheel doesn't tell you where you are in the page, which is why scrollbars are good (I don't know that I've ever used them to change position, personally; that's not what they're "for" in my brain).

It's like how Safari has this weird insistence on hiding URLs. Every other browser tooltips or status bars a link you hover over, but no: we're apparently just supposed to click blind. For that matter the address bar doesn't even show you the full URL you're at right now unless you enter edit mode.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#238

Post by [deleted] »

autoexec wrote: post #20

Once again I have to give firefox credit for giving users the tools in about:config to disable this. It's cute fluff at best and annoying/abusive at worst. The browser's UI should more or less be fully off the table when it comes to what a website can change, and that includes scrollbars.

[deleted]

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#239

Post by masswerk »

wilg wrote: post #81
nine_k wrote: post #59

The author sees half the problem and offers the worse half of a solution. A scrollbar is not only a control, it's also an indicator . It shows where your viewport is relative to the bigger view, e.g. a long list. Hiding scrollbars, like some [redacted] GUIs like macOS do, is just acutely impolite, much like making buttons indistinguishable from text, or putting light grey text on a light grey background. A solution e…

??? macOS (and iOS) is designed this way because of the gesture you want! You don't need the scrollbar because you have the gesture. If you want to see where you are in the page you just scroll a teeny bit. It works great, I haven't seen a scrollbar in years and its never a problem. Sure, some accessibility options are nice for some people.

What is the gesture for "let's go to page 196 of this 320 pages document"?

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#240

Post by ghostly_s »

yen223 wrote: post #186
amanzi wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First time hearing the term a11y for me too. I hope to never come across it again.

It's interesting to me how almost nobody uses the ` ` (i18n, a11y, etc) convention anymore. I guess ubiquitous autocomplete has made that convention redundant.

Well it was never a convention. just an in-group behavior in some incredibly small niches.
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