Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education • Hacker News Board

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#241

Post by goles » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:30 AM UTC

rawgabbit wrote: post #139

joshhart wrote: post #7

The article suggests several causes: 1. Bias in population - these students all have families where at least one parent has a stable job, which isn't true elsewhere. There could also be other factors, for instance maybe people who enter the military are more motivated on average and that genetically or through parenting is passed on to their kids. 2. Better funding 3. Frequent feedback to teachers and more methodical…

I spent time in the US military many years ago. From my sample size of one: 1) This is population bias and self-selection. Everyone I met in the service was extremely patriotic and wanted to succeed in everything. Many came from desperately poor backgrounds and saw the service as their way to the middle class. Those who joined for other reasons were quickly forced out. At the time, when people asked me what my job wa…

"If you find a way to be happy in the US military they will find a way to fix that problem for you." - My Mom, USAF.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#242

Post by rawgabbit » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:31 AM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #207

rawgabbit wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent time in the US military many years ago. From my sample size of one: 1) This is population bias and self-selection. Everyone I met in the service was extremely patriotic and wanted to succeed in everything. Many came from desperately poor backgrounds and saw the service as their way to the middle class. Those who joined for other reasons were quickly forced out. At the time, when people asked me what my job wa…

Sexual assault is a taboo subject that happens under the surface and commanders at all levels are at their wit's end. First, I assume that here, "sexual assault" is perpetrated by men against women. (Yes, I know there are other forms.) In your opinion, what do you think is the root cause of this problem? And, is the rate of sexual assault higher for women in the military vs civilians? (I assume yes due to self-select…

Females are overwhelmingly the victims. I don’t dare guess what the root cause is. I just know it was rarely reported. Over the years, it has actually gotten worse. So much so the DOD has taken away commanders disciplinary authority in this matter. I have no idea if the rates are higher or lower compared to the civilian population.

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/26...

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#243

Post by HDThoreaun » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:38 AM UTC

autoexec wrote: post #233

VirusNewbie wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If schools don’t have competition there is no incentive to do this.

The incentive is : keep your job / don't get sued. The law requires certain accommodations for students with disabilities and local elections should handle the rest. All that requires is an engaged community and parents can be extremely vocal/involved. Cities can have good reason to lean on schools too, because good schools bring people into an area and they bring money with them. In that sense, public schools do com…

So you kind of just explained why public schools aren't actually competing, at least in poor areas. The issue is that many of the families in these areas do actually care about education, but are unable fix their schools because of others apathy. What should they do?

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#244

Post by marcus_holmes » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:41 AM UTC

gotoeleven wrote: post #220

marcus_holmes wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said "punish" so many times. Punishing unruly kids doesn't stop them being unruly. They just learn to hate the system and everything in it. I got expelled from 2 kindergardens, and then was sent to a Montessori school. Where I was fine, even helpful. "the beatings will continue until behaviour improves" just doesn't work, has never worked. Maybe we shouldn't have one school experience for all the kids. Maybe some…

It does work and has always worked. You're living in fantasy land.

as someone who it has never worked for; you're so wrong.

I was beaten as a kid. It just made me angry. So f*cking angry. It didn't stop me from acting up. I learned to take the beating with pride. I got smarter about when to act up. Everyone involved, literally everyone, had a worse result from this.

I would have had such a better life (and everyone around me) if the people who were supposed to be taking responsibility for me had actually stopped beating me and tried understanding me (like they were supposed to).

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#245

Post by marcus_holmes » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:43 AM UTC

theGnuMe wrote: post #228

marcus_holmes wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said "punish" so many times. Punishing unruly kids doesn't stop them being unruly. They just learn to hate the system and everything in it. I got expelled from 2 kindergardens, and then was sent to a Montessori school. Where I was fine, even helpful. "the beatings will continue until behaviour improves" just doesn't work, has never worked. Maybe we shouldn't have one school experience for all the kids. Maybe some…

I agree with you as a parent of a kid who has been labeled as disruptive. My kid is a smart sweet loving child who has big emotions and gets overstimulated. If anything he is bullied and taken advantage of by the other kids, yet he is the one who is disciplined because he has big reactions in the school setting. Kids can be really mean. In many sense the school is inflexible largely because of budget constraints. Thi…

Thank you for trying :)

Everything seems to be about forcing the kid into a standardised set of behaviour patterns: "behave like this or we will punish you".

Some kids don't work like that.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#246

Post by marcus_holmes » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:46 AM UTC

loandbehold wrote: post #235

marcus_holmes wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said "punish" so many times. Punishing unruly kids doesn't stop them being unruly. They just learn to hate the system and everything in it. I got expelled from 2 kindergardens, and then was sent to a Montessori school. Where I was fine, even helpful. "the beatings will continue until behaviour improves" just doesn't work, has never worked. Maybe we shouldn't have one school experience for all the kids. Maybe some…

You are conflating two unrelated issues: 1. Letting students learn their own way as opposed to memorizing teachers' instructions 2. Letting disruptive kids disrupt education of their classmates #1 is good, #2 is bad. In fact #1 never works when #2 is present.

I'm not an education expert. But I think you have to ask why the disruptive kids are being disruptive. It might be that #2 is caused by not having #1 (at least, that was my experience: I stopped being disruptive when they let me do my own thing).

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#247

Post by rayiner » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:46 AM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #161

HDThoreaun wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is mostly about your peers. It's obviously true for prestigious universities but it's just as true for elementary schools. Charter schools kicking out problematic students isn't some loophole, it's the main point, and it absolutely can improve the education for those that remain. My district has a quarter of high schoolers in charter schools. Almost all of them under the poverty line. It's not like they're…

It is both a loophole and the main point. It's the main point for people who want their children to succeed at the expense of the rest of society and it's a loophole when they try to sell that concept to the rest of society as "we can teach better for cheaper so give us your tax money and let us replace universal public education" rather than "we have thrown some of your children on the scrapheap for you to expensive…

Ruining the educational experience for the 90% to drag along the 10% is likely a bigger net negative.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#248

Post by rayiner » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:48 AM UTC

aeturnum wrote: post #191

greenhexagon wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please also consider: removing the one or two severely disruptive students from a classroom results in drastically better education for the 20+ students who remain, which is likely a benefit to society at large. Based on my own education, a public school where every single day the same 1 or 2 students disrupted the lesson, assaulted nearby students and forced the teachers to waste hours on maintaining order rather th…

I think that all makes sense in a narrow way but I think you are sidestepping the actual challenge of education. As the root comment pointed out - we already know that you improve outcomes by excluding low performers. Schools that can be selective take advantage of that. If you are in a position to attend one of those restrictive schools it may improve your outcomes! However, the question of "how to do a good job edu…

> As the root comment pointed out - we already know that you improve outcomes by excluding low performers.

That’s not quite the point. By excluding low performers, you can improve the outcomes of the other kids, beyond what would be possible by mixing everyone together. So you can achieve a net societal improvement that way.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#249

Post by mleo » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:51 AM UTC

I spent the entirety of my elementary through high school life on a military base and schools on it.

1. On our base, school involvement was “easier” for the enlisted parent. They usually worked consistent hours and were available for after school involvement. They weren’t generally working late and night shifts allowing time to be involved with sports and other school activities.

2. Healthcare was provided and for regular services it was consistent and available. While we didn’t have to pay for it, we would often spend several hours at urgent care waiting to get seen when one of kids was not feeling well. It was a little strange that when I went to college, I had little understanding about how to go about seeing a doctor.

3. We had a small school which allowed everyone to know each other by name, even if we weren’t friends on day to day basis. We knew who was enlisted kids and who were officer kids and who were staff kids. This didn’t generally color attitudes, just part of who we were. It was a good community.

4. We had access to technology early and part of what led me to career in tech.

5. It was a very diverse environment of kids. It was just the way it was and I never gave any thought to race growing up.

6. We had a decent house on base (1950s brick) with each kid having their own room. If there was issues, like ceiling falling in on kitchen, base housing fixed the issues.

All of this took burdens off of my parents and us kids. I try to provide my kids with opportunities I had or even more than I had, but it certainly is a much different environment to do so.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#250

Post by autoexec » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 3:53 AM UTC

HDThoreaun wrote: post #243

autoexec wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incentive is : keep your job / don't get sued. The law requires certain accommodations for students with disabilities and local elections should handle the rest. All that requires is an engaged community and parents can be extremely vocal/involved. Cities can have good reason to lean on schools too, because good schools bring people into an area and they bring money with them. In that sense, public schools do com…

So you kind of just explained why public schools aren't actually competing, at least in poor areas. The issue is that many of the families in these areas do actually care about education, but are unable fix their schools because of others apathy. What should they do?

Organize. Campaign. Reach out to other parents. Name and shame. Apathy is hard to overcome, but most people already want good schools. Even people without kids don't want to be surrounded by uneducated people and don't want to deal with the problems they cause. Making time for local politics is a hard sell, but I've become increasingly convinced that it's our best chance to enact meaningful changes and improve our day to day lives.