Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education • Hacker News Board

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#231

Post by OrvalWintermute » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:59 AM UTC

ryan93 wrote: post #82

OrvalWintermute wrote: post #20

> “The military isn’t perfect — there is still racism in the military,” said Leslie Hinkson, a former Georgetown University sociologist who studied integration in Defense Department schools. But what is distinctive, she said, “is this access to resources in a way that isn’t racialized.” Racism in the military is a career ender for officers and enlisted kind of like getting a DUI but worse. What is more in the system…

Are you purposefully not mentioning the IQ cutoffs the military uses for soldiers. it has been as high as the 50th percentile for the air force.

I’m not mentioning military selectivity because it is highly variable based on the strength of the US economy.

In the Army for example, the highest ASVAB averages are held by infantry & special forces (which is ironic given the low ASVAB requirements for infantry). Many people join the infantry for 4 years only, as a part of a “See action, travel, shoot guns” post highschool before college mindset.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#232

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:59 AM UTC

jmoss20 wrote: post #192

eYrKEC2 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you cut off the lower tail of an IQ curve, no matter how little, you've just raised the average IQ of everyone remaining. If they're in that low IQ tail and they go through the hoops for a waiver, you've just selected for a modicum of conscientiousness.

How certain are you that the upper tail is not impacted just as much, if not more?

[deleted]

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#233

Post by autoexec » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

VirusNewbie wrote: post #229

autoexec wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please also consider: removing the one or two severely disruptive students from a classroom results in drastically better education for the 20+ students who remain, which is likely a benefit to society at large. Charter schools aren't needed for that though. Public schools are supposed to already be doing it. Either in the form of escalating detentions/suspensions followed by expulsion, or by moving the most proble…

If schools don’t have competition there is no incentive to do this.

The incentive is : keep your job / don't get sued.

The law requires certain accommodations for students with disabilities and local elections should handle the rest. All that requires is an engaged community and parents can be extremely vocal/involved. Cities can have good reason to lean on schools too, because good schools bring people into an area and they bring money with them. In that sense, public schools do compete. Families and young adults looking to start them don't want to move to areas without good schools.

Incentives are there, it just takes work and paying attention. A lot of people don't even bother voting in local elections and those that do don't always give much thought to who to elect as superintendent or to the school board. When communities don't take the time to invest in their schools they don't get much out of them. It's part of the reason why poor communities that lack the time/money/energy to be as involved tend to have poorer quality schools. Adding to that are the wealthy families that move to where schools are better or don't move into those areas at all.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#234

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:02 AM UTC

dwater wrote: post #53

HDThoreaun wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very important question. I don't have the answer. What I do know is that forcing underprivileged students to attend schools that cause them to fear for their safety or even life is inhumane. Charter schools are solving that in my district.

Based on your previous comment, the remaining 3/4 of students are all murderers, criminals, deviants, disabled, or with parents who aren’t concerned with their education; or some of those 3/4 of students are somewhere in the middle but had their educations diminished by the removal of the better behaved students.

[deleted]

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#235

Post by loandbehold » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:02 AM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #215

trealira wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're giving them a little too much credit. Plenty of disruptive kids have a perfectly fine home life, have an iPhone, get expensive toys or technology bought for them. A lot of them are just jerks who were never punished by their parents, received few punishments from teachers and staff who had little power, and enjoy being disruptive or bullying others, and don't give a shit if they flunk all their tests o…

You said "punish" so many times. Punishing unruly kids doesn't stop them being unruly. They just learn to hate the system and everything in it. I got expelled from 2 kindergardens, and then was sent to a Montessori school. Where I was fine, even helpful. "the beatings will continue until behaviour improves" just doesn't work, has never worked. Maybe we shouldn't have one school experience for all the kids. Maybe some…

You are conflating two unrelated issues: 1. Letting students learn their own way as opposed to memorizing teachers' instructions 2. Letting disruptive kids disrupt education of their classmates

#1 is good, #2 is bad. In fact #1 never works when #2 is present.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#236

Post by Terr_ » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:03 AM UTC

sgnelson wrote: post #67

ameminator wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why offering parents more choices in how their children are taught could be a bad thing. Maybe the public school system is failing its students. However, it always seemed unfair to trap parents who would otherwise have other options in a failing system. Yes, this does suck for the children of uncaring parents - but for the parents who DO care, shouldn't they have a means of meeting their obligation…

I don't think anyone is going to say "offering parents more choices is bad." But the political reality is not simply "offering more choices." The political reality typically entails using funds set aside for public schools for charter schools. In reality, what happens all too often is that funding and resources are stripped away from the already resource poor schools and given to charter schools. And that's probably…

> I don't think anyone is going to say "offering parents more choices is bad."

Well, I will say that more-choice is not axiomatically good.

Imagine that on Monday the cafeteria has a choice of beef/chicken/vegetarian, and on Tuesday it adds a fourth option for methamphetamines.

There is strictly more choice, and the people who choose it might even express extreme levels of satisfaction... but somehow it doesn't seem like an improvement.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#237

Post by HDThoreaun » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:05 AM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #135

ecshafer wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you kick out the problematic students, the only students you have left are easy to teach non-problematic students. Maybe the negative effects of having problematic students is enough that its a worthwhile endeavor? By Middle school or high school "problematic students" involves people that not only are noisy and disruptive in class, but people that deal drugs, rob people, steal, join gangs, bring weapons to scho…

Wow they sound really undesirable. I wonder if there's some place you could concentrate such people to reduce their impact? Maybe some sort of camp, idk. In all seriousness once you start thinking of huge swathes of children as a problem in this way, the "solutions" become clear and atrocious. You have to find another path sorry.

Can we please not go straight to holocaust comparisons?

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#238

Post by sokoloff » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:08 AM UTC

halfnormalform wrote: post #171

sokoloff wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a charter school that develops a reputation for low quality is a self-solving problem in a way that a public school which develops the same reputation is (currently) not. One goes out of business; the other goes along indefinitely, with perhaps the wealthiest parents nearby withdrawing their kids, but most families and children are forced to endure it or move away.

The feedback loop in education is several years long. Before a charter school develops a bad reputation, they just change their name, put up a banner declaring "Under New Management" and continue right along with better PR.

What happens to a failing public school? It keeps the same name, but adds “now Title I with an even larger budget”.

It’s not clear that that’s in any way better and I think is worse.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#239

Post by kelipso » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:18 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #227

gotoeleven wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does work and has always worked. You're living in fantasy land.

It works, but not in a way you'd like it to. A related saying of some guy who knew this stuff: "You can make a throne of bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long". You can force people with punishment, but they will try to revolt and get revenge once they have a chance; even a small chance, and a small revenge.

By that time they will graduate and it won't matter anymore. It's school, not a society consisting of adults.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#240

Post by trealira » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:19 AM UTC

theGnuMe wrote: post #230

trealira wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only said it 3 times. I don't mean to say that everything should be authoritarian. But to maintain a good school for the students who go to a non-authoritarian school, there still needs to be some degree of punishment, or expulsions. Just like in a non-authoritarian government, people who commit violent crimes still need to be sent to jail for the safety of others. Once away from the others, they can be reformed an…

You've heard of the school to prison pipeline right? https://www.aclu.org/issues/juvenile-justice/juvenile-justic...

I've heard of it.

I don't think having over-authoritarian discuplinarianism is ideal. It's probably a backlash to schools not having enough funding or resources to deal with the assaults and the fighting, so they do the exact opposite of what they'd been doing, or what they think of as the opposite. Going too far the other way, overly disciplining students for minor behavior and failing to change their behavior isn't best either.