Scrollbars are becoming a problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#91

Post by nine_k » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:48 AM UTC

pitterpatter wrote: post #75

nine_k wrote: post #59

The author sees half the problem and offers the worse half of a solution. A scrollbar is not only a control, it's also an indicator . It shows where your viewport is relative to the bigger view, e.g. a long list. Hiding scrollbars, like some [redacted] GUIs like macOS do, is just acutely impolite, much like making buttons indistinguishable from text, or putting light grey text on a light grey background. A solution e…

>A solution exists, and is nearly universally implemented: scroll wheels on a mouse, and scroll gestures on a trackpad. So you didn't read the article huh. The very first paragraph says: >“Ah”, they say, “that’s what the scroll wheel is for”. My friend, not everyone can use a scroll wheel or a swipe up touch screen. Or literally the next paragraph about difficulties small/hidden scrollbars cause with other input meth…

I thinks that of all things, eye trackers and voice controllers have the easiest time sending whatever scrolling commands, without a need to fiddle with scrollbars.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#92

Post by Swizec » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:50 AM UTC

teaearlgraycold wrote: post #51

kvonhorn wrote: post #45

You know what's an accessibility problem for a lot of people over 40? White text on a dark background. I don't think I'll ever get tired of hearing people advocate for making web pages readable for people my age. Yeah, opening up the inspector and updating the author's CSS made it readable for me, but made the shell script unreadable.

Why do you find it hard to read?

I have astigmatism. Bright on dark renders with lens flares.

On a computer I can just use light mode and it’s fine. Driving at night … I really hate bright lights on tall SUVs.

Here’s an example of what it looks like (glasses help): https://beta-ctvnews-ca.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/beta.ctvnews....

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#93

Post by Hizonner » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:50 AM UTC

rubyfan wrote: post #25

thisgoesnowhere wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying you shouldn't use slang because people have to look it up.

When speaking to diverse stakeholders I will not use acronyms, slang, colloquialism, or jargon because I want to be accessible.

"Stakeholder" is jargon.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#94

Post by thisgoesnowhere » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:51 AM UTC

rubyfan wrote: post #25

thisgoesnowhere wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying you shouldn't use slang because people have to look it up.

When speaking to diverse stakeholders I will not use acronyms, slang, colloquialism, or jargon because I want to be accessible.

Ok good to know

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#95

Post by epistasis » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:52 AM UTC

ack_complete wrote: post #82

Add the newest Steam UI to the list of shame, not only for having skinny scrollbars, but also for having the 5px wide hitbox end several pixels short so that slamming the mouse against the right edge of the maximized window misses the scrollbar.

This is why, in the good old days, UI folks got all worked up when programmers reimplemented basic controls, because they always did it half-assed and could not connect into all the other parts of the OS that users can configure, or have connections to accessibility software, etc...

I remember some horrors in my lifetime: WinAMP skins, browser skins, people recklessly ignoring all of the wisdom collected on asktog.com...

But the horrors became so frequent that we all became numb, and now even Windows ships with more UI disarray than could have been imagined in the early 2000s...

The hardest part of becoming a greybeard is realizing what could have been, that we have abandoned.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#96

Post by dbetteridge » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:55 AM UTC

f33d5173 wrote: post #88

ryandrake wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article says, not everyone can use a scroll wheel, and not everyone even has a scroll wheel or touchpad. I personally find using mouse scroll wheels quite painful due to RSI caused from decades of mouse abuse. Yet, designers find scroll bars and up-and-down scroll arrows icky so fuck me, I guess. :(

> so fuck me, I guess Obviously not, but you also shouldn't expect the whole world to be designed around your needs. If you have difficulty using the expected input method, you should use alternatives with the same functionality, not expect others to redesign their apps in your preferred way.

That's the wrong mentality tbh

Design for the best accessibility first and foremost, then try and make things look "prettier".

Disabilities can affect anyone at any time and shouldn't be an afterthought.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#97

Post by kyleee » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:57 AM UTC

least wrote: post #64

kvonhorn wrote: post #45

You know what's an accessibility problem for a lot of people over 40? White text on a dark background. I don't think I'll ever get tired of hearing people advocate for making web pages readable for people my age. Yeah, opening up the inspector and updating the author's CSS made it readable for me, but made the shell script unreadable.

Unfortunately a lot of accessibility concerns are of competing interest against each other and people making webpages don't have infinite time to allocate to ensuring they have options for everyone. You might consider just disabling css altogether.

Or get in the habit of using the browsers reader mode. You can style it to your liking and it generally does a great job, at least for me in Firefox where I use it frequently

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#98

Post by oldbbsnickname » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:59 AM UTC

There are 2 modern UX problems:

- Lack of affordances when scrolling is needed, especially with disappearing scroll bars or ones that never make themselves known

- Tiny scroll bars: not just on the desktop, but on touch interfaces too

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#99

Post by Groxx » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 1:59 AM UTC

speeder wrote: post #69

Pannoniae wrote: post #10

I have come to a funny realisation recently. It's not my eyesight which is becoming worse, it's the UIs which are becoming worse. The tiny scrollbars with laughable contrast are in no way accessible to anyone. I've recently switched to using KDE with the Oxygen theme and it's a joy to use without any eye strain. These scrollbars are absolutely pathetic, with no room for customisation. (good luck theming a locked-down…

I don't use dark mode for contrast, I use because a lot of software "light mode" is just plain white. And screens been getting more and more powerful. Often using software without white mode the thing is so bright, that the walls near me get lighted up as if I was using a flashlight or something. Thus I have to make the screen less bright, but often this also make the screen colors and contrast get all screwy and I s…

... Ya know, I haven't thought about that before, but screens are a lot brighter now aren't they. I wonder how much of the dark mode thing is just that the old good defaults are now eye-burningly bright, so of course people don't like them as much.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#100

Post by avsteele » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

This isn't limited to being a problem for those with fine motor control issues.

The wheel has a linear/constant speed, which is a hindrance for very long pages. Also, wheel scroll can behave differently depending on where the mouse cursor is or has focus. The scroll bar has none of these problems.