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Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

nytimes.com

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Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#211

Post by dventimi »

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

From the article:

"For starters, families have access to housing and health care through the military, and at least one parent has a job."

"Prudence Carter, a Brown University sociologist who studies educational inequality, said the Defense Department’s results showed what could happen when all students were given the resources of a typical middle-class child: housing, health care, food, quality teachers."

The article author argues that multiple factors contribute to this outcome, without identifying a dominant factor. Are you arguing that the selection effects you describe are the dominant factor?

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#213

Post by toomanyrichers »

jvanderbot wrote: post #199
aeturnum wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that all makes sense in a narrow way but I think you are sidestepping the actual challenge of education. As the root comment pointed out - we already know that you improve outcomes by excluding low performers. Schools that can be selective take advantage of that. If you are in a position to attend one of those restrictive schools it may improve your outcomes! However, the question of "how to do a good job edu…

Actually I disagree that a measure of success of an educational system is its breadth. If serving 95% achieved vastly better outcomes and 5% received no education (or an alternative one!) Would that necessarily and absolutely be worse? What about 99/1 or 99.9 etc

Agreed. It’s uselessly idealist to imagine you can serve the 100% without making the 99% much worse off. Actually worse than useless — it’s making things worse for the 99%!

Having seen just how much damage a single disruptive student can do, I think there must be alternatives for those that need them — if only to stop disrupting everyone else.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#214

Post by oldbbsnickname »

Probably an obsolete datapoint: My parents were both children of US military and educated domestically and internationally between 1955 - 1966. Although my mom became an accountant and dad was a mechanic, they were well-educated compared to the average American. They grew up in a time where college was for about 40% of high school graduates.

It's also obsolete but worth mentioning my grandfather, child of blue-collar people, still had to take Latin and French in a 1930's Stamford, Connecticut public school. Although he was a mechanic, electronics hobbyist, and home-improver, he owned Jeopardy almost to Ken Jennings'-level. He grew up in a time where not everyone went past 7th grade education (12.5 yrs old on average).

I think there are 4 positive traits of military culture that civilian culture doesn't appreciate:

- Excellence - doing more, striving, mastery, competitiveness

- Discipline - self-restraint, following through, doing hard things, completing a task

- Collectivism - other people are important, a team can accomplish more than one person

- Egalitarianism - treat everyone equally, respect the office not the individual

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#215

Post by marcus_holmes »

trealira wrote: post #209
nine_k wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, think about these disruptive kids. They are the minority. They clearly don't function well in the conventional school setting. They are struggling to learn the material. They learn how to disrupt though, and how the grown-ups around them are powerless. They learn to be constantly blamed, and feel miserable, defiant, or both. A lot of wrong lessons. This makes the lives of these disruptive kids worse. Being in a…

I think you're giving them a little too much credit. Plenty of disruptive kids have a perfectly fine home life, have an iPhone, get expensive toys or technology bought for them. A lot of them are just jerks who were never punished by their parents, received few punishments from teachers and staff who had little power, and enjoy being disruptive or bullying others, and don't give a shit if they flunk all their tests o…

You said "punish" so many times. Punishing unruly kids doesn't stop them being unruly. They just learn to hate the system and everything in it.

I got expelled from 2 kindergardens, and then was sent to a Montessori school. Where I was fine, even helpful.

"the beatings will continue until behaviour improves" just doesn't work, has never worked.

Maybe we shouldn't have one school experience for all the kids. Maybe some kids work fine with an authoritarian system and like having a set of rules to follow. Other kids don't.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#216

Post by davemp »

jvanderbot wrote: post #199
aeturnum wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that all makes sense in a narrow way but I think you are sidestepping the actual challenge of education. As the root comment pointed out - we already know that you improve outcomes by excluding low performers. Schools that can be selective take advantage of that. If you are in a position to attend one of those restrictive schools it may improve your outcomes! However, the question of "how to do a good job edu…

Actually I disagree that a measure of success of an educational system is its breadth. If serving 95% achieved vastly better outcomes and 5% received no education (or an alternative one!) Would that necessarily and absolutely be worse? What about 99/1 or 99.9 etc

The truly disruptive students will likely receive no meaningful education regardless.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#217

Post by AtlasBarfed »

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

It's almost like it advocates for a fundamentally better support/welfare system in America.

Because... that's what is basically happening in the military.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#218

Post by nine_k »

trealira wrote: post #209
nine_k wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, think about these disruptive kids. They are the minority. They clearly don't function well in the conventional school setting. They are struggling to learn the material. They learn how to disrupt though, and how the grown-ups around them are powerless. They learn to be constantly blamed, and feel miserable, defiant, or both. A lot of wrong lessons. This makes the lives of these disruptive kids worse. Being in a…

I think you're giving them a little too much credit. Plenty of disruptive kids have a perfectly fine home life, have an iPhone, get expensive toys or technology bought for them. A lot of them are just jerks who were never punished by their parents, received few punishments from teachers and staff who had little power, and enjoy being disruptive or bullying others, and don't give a shit if they flunk all their tests o…

I agree, a lot of disruptive kids are not highly disadvantaged. Their problem is a bad environment that helped develop their worst attitudes, so they do enjoy disrupting, bullying, and seeing other kids and grown-ups dumbfounded and hurt.

This is not good for them already. The current public school system just keeps helping them develop these valuable antisocial skills. These kids keep thinking that everyone around are weak fools, and that their disruptive behavior is a way to win.

A different environment, where there is nobody to easily bully, where the grown-ups are not bemused or annoyed by their conduct but expect outbreaks and are prepared to handle them, where the kids are shown different examples of adult behavior that they are used to, might help. More, well-prepared psychologists who definitely should be present in such a school would help these kids understand themselves, their disruptive impulses, why these impulses are ultimately bad, and what ways out are there. These kids are still kids, many not even teenagers. They are still actively learning what a social life is; giving them a good example tailored to them is utterly important.

I do not expect 100% success rate, but I'm pretty certain that it might work much better than a typical helpless public school.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#219

Post by tiahura »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #17
Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

Education is mostly about your peers. It's obviously true for prestigious universities but it's just as true for elementary schools. Charter schools kicking out problematic students isn't some loophole, it's the main point, and it absolutely can improve the education for those that remain. My district has a quarter of high schoolers in charter schools. Almost all of them under the poverty line. It's not like they're…

Education is mostly about your parents.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#220

Post by gotoeleven »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #215
trealira wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're giving them a little too much credit. Plenty of disruptive kids have a perfectly fine home life, have an iPhone, get expensive toys or technology bought for them. A lot of them are just jerks who were never punished by their parents, received few punishments from teachers and staff who had little power, and enjoy being disruptive or bullying others, and don't give a shit if they flunk all their tests o…

You said "punish" so many times. Punishing unruly kids doesn't stop them being unruly. They just learn to hate the system and everything in it. I got expelled from 2 kindergardens, and then was sent to a Montessori school. Where I was fine, even helpful. "the beatings will continue until behaviour improves" just doesn't work, has never worked. Maybe we shouldn't have one school experience for all the kids. Maybe some…

It does work and has always worked. You're living in fantasy land.
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