Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education • Hacker News Board

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#161

Post by ZeroGravitas » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 9:33 PM UTC

HDThoreaun wrote: post #17

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

Education is mostly about your peers. It's obviously true for prestigious universities but it's just as true for elementary schools. Charter schools kicking out problematic students isn't some loophole, it's the main point, and it absolutely can improve the education for those that remain. My district has a quarter of high schoolers in charter schools. Almost all of them under the poverty line. It's not like they're…

It is both a loophole and the main point.

It's the main point for people who want their children to succeed at the expense of the rest of society and it's a loophole when they try to sell that concept to the rest of society as "we can teach better for cheaper so give us your tax money and let us replace universal public education" rather than "we have thrown some of your children on the scrapheap for you to expensively support for the rest of their lives and either don't understand or don't care that this is of net negative value".

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#162

Post by HDThoreaun » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 9:36 PM UTC

moate wrote: post #156

HDThoreaun wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is mostly about your peers. It's obviously true for prestigious universities but it's just as true for elementary schools. Charter schools kicking out problematic students isn't some loophole, it's the main point, and it absolutely can improve the education for those that remain. My district has a quarter of high schoolers in charter schools. Almost all of them under the poverty line. It's not like they're…

“Allowing poor students from families that value education to go to schools with like minded students is an unequivocally good thing compared to what the public schools currently do.“ If this were unequivocal, people like me wouldn’t fundamentally hate the concept of charter schools. You think “one bad apple spoils the bunch” and that’s an observed effect not a law of nature. You can like charter schools, but don’t p…

you're right. Poor choice of words on my part.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#163

Post by eYrKEC2 » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

stonogo wrote: post #25

eYrKEC2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another factor is that the military parents have cleared a bar of pre-enlistment testing (ASVAB?) that has strong correlations with IQ testing.

The minimum ASVAB to enlist is 31, and there are waiver programs for that. This is not a good showing. I feel like people don't appreciate how little lower-enlisted people are paid, what terrible financial literacy abounds in the ranks, and how many kids live on base but are still very firmly living in poverty. There are a lot of advantages to living on base, but this thread is pretending that the military has its sh…

If you cut off the lower tail of an IQ curve, no matter how little, you've just raised the average IQ of everyone remaining.

If they're in that low IQ tail and they go through the hoops for a waiver, you've just selected for a modicum of conscientiousness.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#164

Post by fwungy » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 9:40 PM UTC

1) Military has minimum intelligence standards for entry and intelligence is a heritable trait.

2) Military members are required to show discipline and are held accountable.

Both of these factors make military schools different from public schools.

Smart children will learn with bad teachers. Dumb children will not learn no matter how much you spend on them.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#165

Post by mynameishere » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 9:40 PM UTC

eYrKEC2 wrote: post #13

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

Another factor is that the military parents have cleared a bar of pre-enlistment testing (ASVAB?) that has strong correlations with IQ testing.

This is the correct answer. When you drop off the bottom 30 percent of the population via the AFQT requirement (the part of the ASVAB that correlates well with IQ) you are getting rid of 100,000,000 nitwits. Further to those, you also get rid of the criminals, and psychos, and junkies. This makes the military a kind of modest elite. Their children reflect that and do reasonably well in school.

Are people with 125+ IQs enlisting? Not for the most part, but almost none of the 75 IQ people are enlisting, and they cause a wild disproportion of the problems in society.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#166

Post by xormapmap » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 9:44 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #72

ameminator wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why offering parents more choices in how their children are taught could be a bad thing. Maybe the public school system is failing its students. However, it always seemed unfair to trap parents who would otherwise have other options in a failing system. Yes, this does suck for the children of uncaring parents - but for the parents who DO care, shouldn't they have a means of meeting their obligation…

> I don't understand why offering parents more choices in how their children are taught could be a bad thing. I am going to give my kid all the advantages I can, of course. But...personal optimization != societal optimization. Yes, I can put my kid in a better spot to succeed, but we aren't making progress as a society, things are getting very much worse actually (e.g. income inequality). > Yes, this does suck for th…

> It is much easier to set a kid straight than try to fix an adult

Is this true? Adults have free will & personal responsibility, kids are sort of at the whim of their parents and have no real legal rights when it comes to escaping a bad situation

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#167

Post by HDThoreaun » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 9:45 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #161

HDThoreaun wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is mostly about your peers. It's obviously true for prestigious universities but it's just as true for elementary schools. Charter schools kicking out problematic students isn't some loophole, it's the main point, and it absolutely can improve the education for those that remain. My district has a quarter of high schoolers in charter schools. Almost all of them under the poverty line. It's not like they're…

It is both a loophole and the main point. It's the main point for people who want their children to succeed at the expense of the rest of society and it's a loophole when they try to sell that concept to the rest of society as "we can teach better for cheaper so give us your tax money and let us replace universal public education" rather than "we have thrown some of your children on the scrapheap for you to expensive…

I have no kids. My support of charters has nothing to do with that, especially seeing as I would live in a good public school district anyway.

I thought this was clear with the comment but I don't think charter schools teach better or cheaper. They just make it easier for kids to succeed by removing distractions. Before charters almost all of the poor children in the district were being thrown on the scrapheap. Now many of them are getting the education they deserve. I'll admit that I have no perfect solution. I'm not sure there is one. But it seems clear to me that I can't sit by and allow underprivileged students to face the conditions they historically have at public schools here.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#168

Post by VirusNewbie » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 9:46 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #161

HDThoreaun wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is mostly about your peers. It's obviously true for prestigious universities but it's just as true for elementary schools. Charter schools kicking out problematic students isn't some loophole, it's the main point, and it absolutely can improve the education for those that remain. My district has a quarter of high schoolers in charter schools. Almost all of them under the poverty line. It's not like they're…

It is both a loophole and the main point. It's the main point for people who want their children to succeed at the expense of the rest of society and it's a loophole when they try to sell that concept to the rest of society as "we can teach better for cheaper so give us your tax money and let us replace universal public education" rather than "we have thrown some of your children on the scrapheap for you to expensive…

>It's the main point for people who want their children to succeed at the expense of the rest of society

Having a child achieve their full potential actually helps society, it does not hinder it.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#169

Post by sobkas » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #110

dfxm12 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The philosophical issue is charter schools use public resources yet are not accountable to the public. Adding to that, having public education system that is available to the public is kind of the key part here. So, the practical issue is that if some students are being excluded, that misses the point of public education terribly (other practical issues involve profiteering by the charters, just like with private pri…

>The philosophical issue is charter schools use public resources yet are not accountable to the public. They absolutely are accountable to the public in their school district, who can choose to send their kids not to that school if they don't like the school, depriving the school of revenue.

> >The philosophical issue is charter schools use public resources yet are not accountable to the public.

> They absolutely are accountable to the public in their school district, who can choose to send their kids not to that school if they don't like the school, depriving the school of revenue.

Having a choice between charter school and public school without enough resources to provide even basics to its students is not a choice. It's even worse because parents of children in public schools most likely also lack resources to help their children(be it material or cultural). So children in public schools end with a double whammy, neither parents(or parent) or school can help them.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#170

Post by stainablesteel » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 9:51 PM UTC

that's great, although the article doesn't spill much information other than saying they're insulated from bureaucratic institutions (a pretty good start)

i don't see beating public school performance as a high bar, public schools are terrible

acton academy is the gold standard imo, i love hearing about other education paradigms though.