Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education • Hacker News Board

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#131

Post by HDThoreaun » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:50 PM UTC

pharmakom wrote: post #88

HDThoreaun wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My district spends $29k per student. More than almost any other in the world. Yet some of its schools are so bad that a quarter of high schoolers opted out. It's not about funding. It's an overwhelmingly blue area, politicians are not purposefully sabotaging the schools. The government is just utterly incompetent, and worse, corrupt. And unfortunately many of the students are from households that don't emphasize the…

> More than almost any other in the world. You should only compare to countries with a similar cost structure.

Replace world with almost any place you can think of and the statement remains true.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#132

Post by jmoss20 » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:52 PM UTC

anarticle wrote: post #83

ethbr1 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel you faced any detrimental challenges your non-military family peers didn't, as you made the transition from high school to college? If so, what? Have a child soon to be in a similar situation, so any thoughts helpful.

The major benefit/challenge of being a military kid that moved every 2-3y is that you make friends really fast and resocialize very easily. This also means you don't have any roots. My example is often that my friends in high school were friends since kindergarten, something I have no frame of reference for. It probably only hurt in high school for sports and clique based activities. For going from highschool to coll…

Yeah, I had a similar upbringing, and this is my feeling as well. There's a massive trade-off here, but I do feel like the military kids I knew (and run into now) are radically more adaptable and sociable.

Another upside, in retrospect: you end up getting to see, up-close, a huge range of the social/cultural/political landscape.

It's hard to demonize an outgroup much when you at times were that outgroup -- or were at least, in the abstract, some outgroup. You end up forced to confront (deep-down, maybe mostly unconsciously) the arbitrariness and...malleability of a lot of things. You end up with a lot of tolerance. I'm thankful I had that experience, even if it was at times not particularly fun.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#133

Post by HDThoreaun » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:56 PM UTC

9530jh9054ven wrote: post #101

chowells wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely 100% incorrect. If the parents aren't willing or able to raise their children, someone has to. "Throw them away" is not a moral, ethical, or utilitarian answer.

Why isn't it an answer? At least from a purely utilitarian point of view, cost of educating and raising a child is exorbitant (teachers, food, clothing, shelter, etc) compared to euthanizing them (1 to 5 bullets, executioner pay, and burial costs). Benefits are going to be somewhat iffy; yes they could turn out okay but it's just as likely they could turn into criminal offenders that will chew up resources of the cri…

I think you missed the "imprison them for 2 decades" part of euthanizing them in your consideration. It's fun to just make up how you think things should ideally work, but we're bounded by how things actually work.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#134

Post by Simulacra » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 8:04 PM UTC

I went to school at Fort Gordon for two years, and the impression I got was that if I got in trouble, my parents got in trouble, and that would have been way worse. In public schools however, it never crossed my mind that my parents could get in trouble for something I did in school.

With the military schools, there is a huge element of parental responsibility and that's why I think it made them great.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#135

Post by giraffe_lady » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 8:07 PM UTC

ecshafer wrote: post #109

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Charter schools kicking out problematic students isn't some loophole, it's the main point, and it absolutely can improve the education for those that remain. If you kick out the problematic students, the only students you have left are easy to teach non-problematic students. > and it absolutely can improve the education for those that remain. It isn't mysterious: you selected the best students, so your results will…

> If you kick out the problematic students, the only students you have left are easy to teach non-problematic students. Maybe the negative effects of having problematic students is enough that its a worthwhile endeavor? By Middle school or high school "problematic students" involves people that not only are noisy and disruptive in class, but people that deal drugs, rob people, steal, join gangs, bring weapons to scho…

Wow they sound really undesirable. I wonder if there's some place you could concentrate such people to reduce their impact? Maybe some sort of camp, idk.

In all seriousness once you start thinking of huge swathes of children as a problem in this way, the "solutions" become clear and atrocious. You have to find another path sorry.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#136

Post by barryrandall » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 8:14 PM UTC

relaxing wrote: post #93

gustavus wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same type of thing is in play in military schools. There will be few-to-no kids of poor single moms. All the kids will be well fed and groomed and socialized. I grew up near a military base, and that describes very very few people. > no kids of poor single moms I'd suggest taking a look at what the military pays before you make the claim no poor. As for single moms it turns out that divorce is a big problem and…

Now do the same for the underperforming kids in an underperforming school. > I'd suggest taking a look at what the military pays before you make the claim no poor. Less than public assistance? > As for single moms it turns out that divorce is a big problem At least your divorced military ex-wife has a better chance of actually collecting alimony and child support. > I'll give you that can be the case, if the MLM and…

Enlisted military families with 2 dependents usually qualify for public assistance programs. It's less of a problem stateside, because jobs open to military spouses are fairly easy to find. Families stationed overseas often don't have this option, though.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#137

Post by mrguyorama » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 8:17 PM UTC

Scubabear68 wrote: post #14

It's not a high bar to beat, at least here in New Jersey. Nearly all of our school boards are non-professional, non-compensated elected officials, and a large percentage of Superintendents started their career as gym teachers. The net result is schools that hire hoards of consultants to try to meet professional standards, but fail anyway, while spending vast sums of tax payer dollars. Covid funds earmarked towards br…

Are you voting out the bad and ineffective actors in your local school system?

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#138

Post by linuxftw » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 8:28 PM UTC

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #104

linuxftw wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is about US schools.... so? How can one sabotage a house of cards? Failure was inevitable.

I don’t believe that public schooling, an actually lindy institution worldwide , an institution that was working quite well in the US up until about the 70s and 80s (wonder what happened then hmm) that has produced world renowned schools in the US in particular, is more of a house of cards than the Potemkin village that is charter and private schools.

You'll need to provide evidence that public schools were working well in the 70s and 80s. Graduation rates today are higher than those decades. High school was optional for many parts of the country.

The reason for the outcry now, is that we measure everything, and even the wealthier areas of the country are unable to perform to any reasonable standard.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#139

Post by rawgabbit » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 8:33 PM UTC

joshhart wrote: post #7

The article suggests several causes: 1. Bias in population - these students all have families where at least one parent has a stable job, which isn't true elsewhere. There could also be other factors, for instance maybe people who enter the military are more motivated on average and that genetically or through parenting is passed on to their kids. 2. Better funding 3. Frequent feedback to teachers and more methodical…

I spent time in the US military many years ago. From my sample size of one:

1) This is population bias and self-selection. Everyone I met in the service was extremely patriotic and wanted to succeed in everything. Many came from desperately poor backgrounds and saw the service as their way to the middle class. Those who joined for other reasons were quickly forced out. At the time, when people asked me what my job was in the military, I joked that I was a "bullet stopper". I was joking but I honestly believed everyone in my team would take a bullet for each other.

2) Funding is questionable. Military pay is a joke. Many of the enlisted I knew received food stamps and WIC (women infant children supplement monies to feed themselves). The housing is old, probably contain asbestos and lead, mold etc. But at least its warm. Probably most important there was almost zero theft, burglaries, or crime you see in troubled cities. Healthcare is almost free.

3) Teaching. The military does things by the book. Many books. Thousands of pages. Most of which is bull shit. The military makes up for it through sheer determination.

4) Racial integration. Hmmmm. The US military at least has a huge problem with racism, sexism, all kinds of isms. Sexual assault is a taboo subject that happens under the surface and commanders at all levels are at their wit's end. If my daughter wanted to join the US military, I would actively encourage her and secretly worry that she would be sexually assaulted. I would try to warn her indirectly and tell her things like don't go to private parties. Drink only in a public setting with a designated person looking out for trouble. The service is an honor but also has its own problems.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#140

Post by jmoss20 » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 8:39 PM UTC

red-iron-pine wrote: post #92

gustavus wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same type of thing is in play in military schools. There will be few-to-no kids of poor single moms. All the kids will be well fed and groomed and socialized. I grew up near a military base, and that describes very very few people. > no kids of poor single moms I'd suggest taking a look at what the military pays before you make the claim no poor. As for single moms it turns out that divorce is a big problem and…

> I'd suggest taking a look at what the military pays before you make the claim no poor....All the kids will be well fed to this point, there are a lot of military families on food stamps. plenty of hillbillys and hoodrats. plenty of bad areas near military bases, too. but living on base or around base leads to a pretty strong monoculture. you also have a motivated cadre of military spouses -- who are often nurses an…

Yes, in my experience rural areas around bases tend to be more well-off than rural areas not around bases -- the base stimulates the local economy quite a bit, if nothing else. (Otoh, the revolving door population is not great for stability.)

But FWIW I do not think the effect is even close to strong enough to explain the results in the article.