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In Defense of Electricity Markets

austinvernon.site

31–40 of 142 posts

Re: In Defense of Electricity Markets

#31
post #17
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it worse in Europe? Where in Europe is it worse? I can't remember the last time the grid failed.

Not sure what OP refers to but it isn't very long ago that we were paying over a dollar per kwh in Norway. We've always had extremely low energy prices due to our abundant hydroelectric power etc, but now it's all being sold to Germany or whatever and we get to buy their coal power for 30 times the price we're used to.

Norway had trouble with hydro power because of low water levels. Compared to 2021, hydro power was down 10%, imports went up by 60%, and exports remained the same. And for the record, Germany didn't have any trouble with electricity last year, they exported records amounts of it, even increased the usage of gas to meet other countries' demands. Germany exported more electricity to Luxemburg than Norway exported to Germany - and while it seems popular for Norwegians here to claim that Germany wrecked their electricity market, I've yet to see a German claim that little Luxemburg caused electricity prices to explode in Germany.

Re: In Defense of Electricity Markets

#32
post #8
post #5

Counterpoint: electricity markets are terrible for reliability. Markets are great, but there are no pricing signals for reliability. You won't know that your grid will collapse at the first strong breeze, until it happens (see: Texas). Theoretically, it can work because companies might invest in reliable generation, in the hopes of getting $$$$$$$$$ when the spot price goes up through the roof. But in practice, prett…

How is it worse in Europe? Where in Europe is it worse? I can't remember the last time the grid failed.

> I can't remember the last time the grid failed.

In Italy, multiple days in July, in some areas.

Re: In Defense of Electricity Markets

#33
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what OP refers to but it isn't very long ago that we were paying over a dollar per kwh in Norway. We've always had extremely low energy prices due to our abundant hydroelectric power etc, but now it's all being sold to Germany or whatever and we get to buy their coal power for 30 times the price we're used to.

From the market's point of view selling to Germany distributes the goods more efficiently. Germans don't freeze in the Winter, while you don't keep office buildings lit up at night just because electricity is cheap. It feels like you're losing here, but on average everyone wins. (also, there's the whole invasion of Ukraine going on, which has caused a massive disruption to the market)

Oh the offices are all on at night. No worries there.

Re: In Defense of Electricity Markets

#34
post #32
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it worse in Europe? Where in Europe is it worse? I can't remember the last time the grid failed.

> I can't remember the last time the grid failed. In Italy, multiple days in July, in some areas.

You're mixing up "the grid" (TSO) with your local delivery (DSO). The first one didn't fail recently. The second one depends on your distribution operator and is not on the market.

Re: In Defense of Electricity Markets

#35
post #18
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it worse in Europe? Where in Europe is it worse? I can't remember the last time the grid failed.

Exactly. If anything the electricity markets in Europe prove the point they can work.

It sort of depends on what you mean by markets. In most places in Europe the production of power is on the market, but the actual power grid is not freely traded. The grid is instead handed out to semi-permanent monopolies that are heavily regulated and controlled by governments and/or non-profit NGOs that are essentially a way we do efficient government in the supply sector.

It works, but the benefit isn’t usually to the consumers despite that being the intention. We’re currently seeing a load of insider trading and price manipulation cases roll into court after the price hikes following last years gas craze, and over all, power prices haven’t really gone down.

In many ways it’s mostly been a way to divert public money from the public services and into private investors. The way I pay for my electricity is that I pay for the grid, which is the non-freely-privatised part of your electricity market and makes up around 50% of my bill. Before it was privatised it was 90% less expensive. The other 50% is the actual electricity that I buy, we currently buy ours from a company of two people who buy and sell electricity on the European markets. This part is cheaper than it was before it was privatised, but the profits go to those two people and not into advancement of our electric grid.

The prices of electricity are also sort of heavily dependent on the government. A huge part of the income you get from running something like a solar plant is often going to be tariff because the EU can’t/won’t allow green energy to be traded freely as it would bankrupt fossil fuel plants, and you sort of need those since they can scale power at any time. Of course if it wasn’t privatised you could spend those tariffs, green euro and other subsidies on actually building the sector like you did with nuclear and fossil fuels. Not that I mind, I work in an investment bank that builds energy plants and sell them, so it’s good money, but it’s also sort of silly financially.

Like in Germany you have Tariffs where you only get the tariff if you don’t exceed the production max that’s set politically. So if you produce up to 99.9% you get your free money, but if you produce 100.1% you get zero tariff money. You obviously still get paid from the electricity production at whatever rate it’s capped at, at any given time. Then on top of that the government is paying you to shut down production during peaks so you don’t flood the European grid beyond capacity. Which is fine for us, but also sort of silly for consumers since it’s their tax money that’s basically used to make energy production a lucrative business for us.

So yeah, it works, there is a lot of money in it, and a lot of job creation, but it’s not really a net benefit for your consumers.

Re: In Defense of Electricity Markets

#36
post #2

I, for one, want Gen IV small-modular nuclear reactors built. They solve all our climate change-related challenges AND they eat the waste of older generation reactors. I fail to see why we're not investing in more nuclear over solar and wind (whose components are not usually recycled)

Part of the reason is because they none have actually been built yet, and there would take even longer to perfect them. You could say that that is a reason for that is under-investment, but you can't say things like "they solve all our climate change-related challenges" about something that doesn't exit yet...

Re: In Defense of Electricity Markets

#37
post #35
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If anything the electricity markets in Europe prove the point they can work.

It sort of depends on what you mean by markets. In most places in Europe the production of power is on the market, but the actual power grid is not freely traded. The grid is instead handed out to semi-permanent monopolies that are heavily regulated and controlled by governments and/or non-profit NGOs that are essentially a way we do efficient government in the supply sector. It works, but the benefit isn’t usually t…

Having very very few grid failures in Germany is a benefit to consumers, too. Price is only one dimension of consumer benefit.

Re: In Defense of Electricity Markets

#38
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the market's point of view selling to Germany distributes the goods more efficiently. Germans don't freeze in the Winter, while you don't keep office buildings lit up at night just because electricity is cheap. It feels like you're losing here, but on average everyone wins. (also, there's the whole invasion of Ukraine going on, which has caused a massive disruption to the market)

Oh the offices are all on at night. No worries there.

Can’t for the life of me understand that particular Scandinavian peculiarity in what would seem otherwise very rational society. I assume it must have been logical or still is?

Re: In Defense of Electricity Markets

#39
post #5

Counterpoint: electricity markets are terrible for reliability. Markets are great, but there are no pricing signals for reliability. You won't know that your grid will collapse at the first strong breeze, until it happens (see: Texas). Theoretically, it can work because companies might invest in reliable generation, in the hopes of getting $$$$$$$$$ when the spot price goes up through the roof. But in practice, prett…

Actually, electricity markets in Europe work just fine, and provide in fact a lot of required stability. And income events are pretty much instantanious. The only problem European markets have is way too low costs for CO2 certificates which make coal plants way to cheap. Other than that, they work just fine.

Re: In Defense of Electricity Markets

#40
post #2

I, for one, want Gen IV small-modular nuclear reactors built. They solve all our climate change-related challenges AND they eat the waste of older generation reactors. I fail to see why we're not investing in more nuclear over solar and wind (whose components are not usually recycled)

Invest in both, I don’t think nuclear is the future but wouldn’t mind being wrong. To pay for it, raise taxes on fossil fuels.

It doesn’t look like we have any alternatives in the next three decades until fusion is viable :wink:
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