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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#391

Post by alexashka »

nimih wrote: post #325
alexashka wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok I've had to double check to see where we've gone wrong. 5.4% is the number of people who died by suicide out of the studied sample. It is not the number of suicide attempts resulting in death, as implied by the original parent. It is actually 59.3% success on first attempt, and of those who failed on first try, 81.8% succeed in subsequent attempts within a year.

I think you're still a bit confused. 81.8% refers to, out of the population which _both_ failed in their first suicide attempt, _and also_ eventually (within the study observation window, i.e. 3-25 years) dies of suicide, the proportion who die within year 1 rather than years 2-25. In fact, the study authors point out that they found follow-up attempts _less_ likely to succeed compared to the initial attempt: > Of th…

Thanks, I am no longer confused.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#392

Post by mensetmanusman »

NalNezumi wrote: post #143
candybar wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, suicidal attempts are often impulsive, so any barrier (in this case literally) even if it's relatively easy to get around, reduces suicide rates. Here's another study, this time on firearms: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... > The researchers found that people who owned handguns had rates of suicide that were nearly four times higher than people living in the same neighborhood who d…

This makes me wonder more about the idea of legalizing assisted (pain-free) suicide, with the caveat that the process needs a lengthy evaluation time (background check for no coercion, mental evaluation etc). I wonder if it would have the opposite effect, reducing suicide rate by picking up the people so hopeless they would've just jumped a bridge/bought a gun if the option of peaceful suicide didn't exist.

They tried this in Europe and it resulted in an interesting scenario where the doctor was killing someone who changed their mind and was telling them to stop.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#393

Post by giantg2 »

Fomite wrote: post #349
giantg2 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found most veterinary care and meds to be very affordable. Major surgeries or specialized equipment (for large animals like horses) can be expensive. Yeah, the schools are going to be expensive just as colleges are. Similar to med school, you're looking at high costs of educators, equipment, etc.

They also cut costs when they can. Metronidazole for colitis as an example - it’s not the standard of care for humans, but vets use it all the time because it’s wildly cheaper (cents vs $100s for vancomycin or $1000 for Fidaxomicin)

Even when it's the same meds, it's usually cheaper for the animal form (especially antibiotics).

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#394

Post by rurp »

heyoni wrote: post #292
agumonkey wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very interesting view point. Existence used to be cohesive, ritualized, we were all close to and part of every aspect of it. Now it's all industrialized, and it's not surprising that it's dehumanizing to people in charge.

My wife thinks that in time of peace we should require kids that turn 18 to spend a year doing some community service. Somewhere far from home.

Totally agree. In college I lived in a transfer dorm for a year which was mostly filled with kids who had either transferred from another country or had taken a gap year before college to do something interesting. It was great! The group was full of interesting people and there was dramatically less of the typical dumb college freshmen behavior than usual.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#395

Post by Exuma »

Mezzie wrote: post #367
Exuma wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes me feel a lot better... thank you

I would recommend making arrangements for the body beforehand/having someone else around to take care of the immediate 'aftermath', as morbid as that is to think about. You aren't going to be in any shape to handle any logistics and seeing her body without 'her' in it WRECKED me.

Hmm so the vet doesnt deal with that? what do i actually do to make preparations, as theres no pet cemetaries that Im aware of?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#396

Post by rurp »

DoesntMatter22 wrote: post #228
heyoni wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

I take care of a lot of feral cats and it's really tough. They die often, due to feline HIV or feline Lukemia. It sucks. 9 have died since January (3 were kittens). But it's just not practical to put them to sleep. The first one I did but it was 300 bucks. Idk it does suck.

Oof yeah, this is tough. I have done some fostering of kittens and on the whole I highly recommend it; it's a great way to have kittens in the home without committing to long term adoption, and it helps out shelters that really need the help. But this part of it is tough. Feline lukemia and other terminal illnesses are not uncommon with shelter cats and it sure hurts to lose them.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#397

Post by [deleted] »

birksherty wrote: post #196
I_Am_Nous wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading about how "sticking your head in an oven" was a legitimate suicide method when using coal gas ovens. When people switched to natural gas/electric, the suicide rate dropped drastically: >The switch from coal gas to natural gas also had one unexpected effect. During the ‘50s and ‘60s, about half of the suicides in Britain were by coal gas. By the ‘70s, when the transition to natural gas was complete,…

Just living without dying is not a good life. If anyone wants to stop suicide they should prevent the root cause that leads to it, not just stop giving a less painful way to do so. It's inhuman and many forced to die horribly because of this. It's always the privileged who decides to make suicide harder. They think life is always going to be good at after waiting. For many it's not true. Privileged people think just…

[deleted]

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#398

Post by candybar »

derbOac wrote: post #334
candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

I think this is a dangerous way to approach the problem. Regardless of whether or not the assertion that the "primary factor is they know how", the underlying cause is distress and hopelessness. I'm frustrated a bit by how discussions of suicide — with vets as well as others — tends to focus on making the means less available, as if it just solves the problem. That's a solution for society, to wash their hands of add…

Sure, but at this point you're no longer talking about why vets are dying from suicide at a higher rate. We don't know if vets tend to deal with more "distress and hopelessness" than the general population.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#399

Post by Fomite »

CommieBobDole wrote: post #93
hvs wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new owner pays for it.

How does that work, though? Is there a constellation of dog-seeking people hovering around veterinary offices that only want dogs that cost $10k and have recently had major surgery? People who are willing to donate $10k to save a dog's life but consider it very important that the current owner no longer have the dog anymore for some reason?

Based on my experience with vets, a large percentage of the time it ends up living with the vet.

Every single one I know has a small menagerie of broken animals.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#400

Post by candybar »

psychlops wrote: post #326
candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

I think you are using the wrong statistics to make your point. The key point here is the there is a suicide difference between males and females. And vets are overwhelmingly male (90%). Women attempt suicide a lot more and those statistics you used are skewing your conclusion. Men (vets or not) use guns and are more successful.

You're wildly off the mark here. From the study quoted:

> In 2017, over 60% of 110,531 US veterinarians were female, and in 2016, approximately 80% of students enrolled at US veterinary medical colleges were female.

> The PMRs for suicide for all veterinarian decedents (2.1 and 3.5 for males and females, respectively), those in clinical positions (2.2 and 3.4 for males and females, respectively), and those in nonclinical positions (1.8 and 5.0 for males and females, respectively) were significantly higher than for the general US population.

So no, this has nothing to do with vets being disproportionately male (which isn't the case to begin with).

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