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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#261

Post by 082349872349872 »

SiliconCowboy wrote: post #225

(edits to fix grammar) Having been the son of a veterinarian, I'll provide my perspective: * Veterinarians get into their career because of their love of animals and wanting to take care of them. Working with their owners can be a positive or negative. * They are limited by what information they can get out of their patients. Example, A dog not wagging its tail could be due to it being scared or internal pain. Dogs i…

see also Lund, "Talkin' Veterinarian Blues", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JChwFoCxVC8

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#262

Post by maxwell »

rednerrus wrote: post #217
maxwell wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, yeah, I read the book too, no bland autogenerated pap with zero citations necessary. It clouded my worldview and made me complacent and content with my privilege in the early 2010s. The other usual citation here is Hans Rosling. Think any of the 50 million slaves have had the chance to read the erudite works of Steven Pinker? You haven't addressed any of my points, haven't pointed to a single instance of inaccu…

Here is what's being counted as slavery from your source: Forms of modern slavery include slavery by "ownership" ("chattel" slavery), government conscription (forced military service or government labor), forced prison labor, forced migrant labor, debt bondage (slavery until debts are paid), sexual slavery, forced marriage/child marriage, child labor, and forced begging. With the definition of modern slavery in mind,…

Chattel slavery was legal between the 15th and 19th century, so slaves were uniquely accounted for accurately during that time. Now that slavery is officially illegal (unless the government has a good enough excuse), instead of legal, accounted for chattel slaves you get the de facto / black market / "technically-not-slavery" categories you describe and the job of estimating counts becomes more difficult.

Sure, "modern" slavery is more akin to historical/ancient slavery (i.e. ostensibly based on punishment, debt, or civil status), and yes 19th century Southern American slavery was particularly brutal, with cotton becoming the world's top cash crop on the economics of the cotton gin + slave labor.

But my point wasn't how many slaves there were between the 15th and 19th century, use any number you like, we all have some sense of how bad things were. My point was that there are tens of millions people living in slave-like conditions right now, while your point seems to be something like, "but it's modern slavery!"

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#263

Post by Etheryte »

maxwell wrote: post #223
Etheryte wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a nice idea, except it's also completely false. Every generation before this one has thought the same and for most of history they haven't exactly been right.

Wrong. No previous generations have held onto power as long. We had the first Boomer President in 1993, now here we are thirty years later with the first Silent Generation President. Leadership of the Missionary Generation (born 1860-82) did extend into the 1930s and '40s, but they, you know, enacted the New Deal, created Social Security, and led the global war against fascism. Boomers often talk about the sacrifices…

This is a very US-centric take that falls apart the moment you look at the rest of the world.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#264

Post by ang_cire »

siftrics wrote: post #157
pc86 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute amount of money is irrelevant, it matters what percentage of a person's disposable income it is. $10k is nothing if you making half a million dollars a year and have $200k in credit with no balance, because your disposable income is probably $400-450k/yr. $200 is a ruinous amount of money if you make minimum wage and take the bus to work because your disposable income is very likely negative.

>$10k is nothing if you making half a million dollars a year and have $200k in credit with no balance, because your disposable income is probably $400-450k/yr. You must mean half a million after taxes .

People have no clue how much tax cuts out at higher income rates.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#265

Post by dinkleberg »

birksherty wrote: post #196
I_Am_Nous wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading about how "sticking your head in an oven" was a legitimate suicide method when using coal gas ovens. When people switched to natural gas/electric, the suicide rate dropped drastically: >The switch from coal gas to natural gas also had one unexpected effect. During the ‘50s and ‘60s, about half of the suicides in Britain were by coal gas. By the ‘70s, when the transition to natural gas was complete,…

Just living without dying is not a good life. If anyone wants to stop suicide they should prevent the root cause that leads to it, not just stop giving a less painful way to do so. It's inhuman and many forced to die horribly because of this. It's always the privileged who decides to make suicide harder. They think life is always going to be good at after waiting. For many it's not true. Privileged people think just…

Thank you! I am not, nor have I ever been suicidal. But the societal view towards it has always felt like tyrannical bullshit.

You’re telling me that if there is nothing left for me in life and I just don’t want to go on anymore that I can’t because society deems it has wrong and selfish (and yet society applauds other selfish acts…)

To be stuck as a slave to your environment and be deprived of your one ultimate freedom is inhumane.

It goes without saying that we should absolutely strive to help those that are suicidal. And a big part of that I imagine is actually providing people a space where they can find a purpose in life rather than being trapped in the endless cycle of trying to escape their debt with low paying and soul destroying jobs.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#266

Post by ang_cire »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #127
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, if a vet can, as a matter of practice, afford to do procedures probono but only if the owner surrenders their pet, it means they are making an absolutely staggering profit from those who are emotionally extorted to pay. That is predatory. I miss the days when vets got into the business to run small practices for a reasonable profit and middle class lifestyle. Few of them wanted mercedes money . It's kind of…

You think you should dictate the price of someone else’s labor, and that is less predatory or somehow better than someone being able to price their own labor?

Me myself? Absolutely not.

But yes, labor should have some means to be controlled for price, so that people cannot be underpaid or overpaid (as many are).

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#267

Post by 01100011 »

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #39

My wife is a vet. One big issue is that most people don’t have pet insurance. But they do have medical insurance. As a consequence they are completely surprised by the out-of-pocket costs of medical procedures. Hip surgery (to pick something at random) is hip surgery, even if it’s for a dog. It still costs thousands of dollars. But a significant portion of the population expects to pay what they would pay for insuran…

This. Vets probably got into the job hoping to care for animals in the best possible way. But economics prevents that.

I've always been very conservative in treating my animals. Mostly due to costs, but also because modern vets offer a lot of questionable treatment options. I've had dogs with cancer where I was offered tens of thousands in care that would have had marginal success and would have extended suffering for the animal. Same thing with my 20+ year old dog with kidney disease and cataracts. I'm not going to take resources away from my human child to add months to my dogs life, regardless of how much I adore my dog.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#268

Post by at_a_remove »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #226
Exuma wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite cats has a bad tumor and a 3 month expected life span. I found out a few days ago. I’m shattered and the thought of having to be in the room or not is just super depressing. I’ve never lost a pet before or even someone very close to me. I’m scared for how bad it’s going to hurt Part of me (most of me) wants to be there to feel the pain in the deepest way and not bitch out. To be there for the last…

You can ask your vet for a home visit. Let them pass in a place that they know is safe and loving.

I did that. I am told it usually goes well.

Mine did not go well. I was a wreck for about two weeks after.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#269

Post by tonyedgecombe »

wcedmisten wrote: post #260
vjk800 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What often stops otherwise suicidal folks is that it's not an easy thing to do Is the take away from this that if all people knew how to kill themselves efficiently, the suicide rates in general population would be as high as they are among vets? It's pretty grim to think that the only thing that's stopping many people from killings themselves is that they don't know how...

There's a case study [1] from the UK when they phased out "coal gas" which contained carbon monoxide, and which many people were using to painlessly kill themselves via their ovens (Silvia Plathe being the most famous to do so). The conclusion was that removing this method of suicide did decrease the suicide rates over that time period. [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC478945/

Just putting paracetamol in small blister packs lowered the rate of overdose in the UK:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#270

Post by maxwell »

Etheryte wrote: post #263
maxwell wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. No previous generations have held onto power as long. We had the first Boomer President in 1993, now here we are thirty years later with the first Silent Generation President. Leadership of the Missionary Generation (born 1860-82) did extend into the 1930s and '40s, but they, you know, enacted the New Deal, created Social Security, and led the global war against fascism. Boomers often talk about the sacrifices…

This is a very US-centric take that falls apart the moment you look at the rest of the world.

Agreed, e.g. Britain has already had four Gen X PMs.
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