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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#151
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this! People think they are spending $25/month and getting full coverage in case something happens, but the reality is that if you have a fairly healthy pet, you're just better off self-insuring and putting that money into an interest bearing account instead. The insurance companies have done all the math and are counting on you making an emotional decision.

I self-insured my previous cat. About a year after she passed of cancer, when I felt I was ready for another pet, I did the math for insurance. I would have paid a lot less with the insurance plan I found. So my new cats have insurance. The costs for my previous cat were heavily skewed to the end of life period. But if there is ever an an accident or other emergency situation during their youth, the insurance would w…

You can't get insurance for an end of life cat. The comparison doesn't work against a young healthy pet. If you never have to use it, you've just wasted a bunch of money.

Don't think you can outsmart rooms full of people who are doing the math against much larger volumes of input data.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#152
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you not see how that would be viewed as insanely predatory? I assume you must be an expert in the cost structure of operating a veterinary practice in that location, at that time, in order to determine a predatory and non predatory price. If you are not, I am not sure how you can make any claim about the prices. >For profit companies should not be involved in human or animal medicine. What kind of quality of li…

> I assume you must be an expert in the cost structure of operating a veterinary practice in that location, at that time, in order to determine a predatory and non predatory price. You don't have to be an expert when you can compare vet prices in US and in other parts of the world. And unlike human healthcare, vet is not subsidized anywhere, so the comparison is fair. With the price tag of 10K$ I'd say it would be wo…

I considered this for my pet's medical care. I did some things at a very expensive private equity owned bay area vet clinic, and other things at a much cheaper location quite a drive away. The bay area clinic wanted 4x as much for a relatively routine procedure. But they also had new and more advanced imaging equipment and monitoring equipment, and veterinary surgeons with fancier degrees and specializations.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have pet medical insurance. It’s about $30/month per pet. If you can’t afford medical costs for your pet then your pet will die if something bad happens. Likewise if you take some magical fairy “society owes me taking care of my pet” then you’re going to be as disappointed as if you walk into a Chanel store and demand a free purse. Pets are a luxury, not a fucking right. It’s not anyone’s job to keep it alive if y…

Check what that insurance actually covers and do the math on it, especially over time (and even factor in current interest rates) and considering total coverage along with deductibles. You might think that you're covered, but in reality you aren't. I couldn't find any insurance that made better sense than just putting $30/mo into a money market account at 5.25%. The way the policies are written, they clearly are ther…

It has worked out positively for us so far, but yes, even with insurance it doesn’t cover everything. My point was not “buy insurance”. My point was “pets are an expensive luxury”. Pets. Plenty of farmers with working animals, and you won’t find them here complaining, because they aren’t under any illusions.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. I'd argue not having the means to deal with emergency situations would make someone unfit to own a pet. I get that circumstances can change and costs increase, but I also feel too many people assume a pet doesn't cost much or isn't muc…

I agree that people shouldn't adopt a pet unless they have stable finances which are enough to pay for pet insurance and/or unexpected vet bills. Sometimes people's finances change though, and then (assuming it wasn't serious money mismanagement) I think it's cruel to say they should give up their pet. Pet insurance should be front-loaded, so you have to pay a lot the first few months, but if you stop paying you get…

I had insurance for years and it did me no good, they refused to cover a single dollar of expenses even though I had the best most comprehensive policy I could find. This has been my experience with insurance in general. Even in cases where you read the fine print and have all your paperwork in order, they just deny all claims period. Collecting on insurance requires being ready to go to court.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#155
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could also be explained that everyone who wanted to kill themselves (WW2 veterans) had already done so. Suicides being 1/3 lower in the 70s than the 50's and 60's seems expected.

Coal gas purportedly has much higher levels of carbon monoxide than natural gas, which would be sufficient.

I'm just talking about the connection to the overall suicide rate. Obviously if natural gas doesn't kill you, or as quickly, that method of suicide will go down. But the overall rate can be explained by many other phenomenon.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#156
post #117
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical doctors have a higher suicide rate

That doesn't seem to be accurate, do you have a source? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016517812... shows in 3.3 that not only is the veterinarian rate more than 2x that of physicians, but the upper end of the 95% CI for physicians is below the lower end of the 95% CI for veterinarians. It doesn't appear to be anywhere close.

This study is about Austria and includes data going pretty far back.

That being said I can’t find conclusive data elsewhere. Most research doesn’t narrow down to jobs neatly. I’ve found number suggesting suicide rates of 200-400% that of the general pop which is in the same ballpark above and blow. So ymmv.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#157
post #91
post #20

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So one of the things that comes up a lot is that it's not actually that correlated with cost. Most vets I know (I also work for a state school, not a for profit company) are very sympathetic toward very large and expensive bills, and have always been up front about cost in a way that human medicine is not. There's also a myriad of ways they try to reduce bills when they can. The toll is from folks who aren't spending…

The absolute amount of money is irrelevant, it matters what percentage of a person's disposable income it is. $10k is nothing if you making half a million dollars a year and have $200k in credit with no balance, because your disposable income is probably $400-450k/yr. $200 is a ruinous amount of money if you make minimum wage and take the bus to work because your disposable income is very likely negative.

>$10k is nothing if you making half a million dollars a year and have $200k in credit with no balance, because your disposable income is probably $400-450k/yr.

You must mean half a million after taxes.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but costs are artificially higher than they need to be because the government restricts who can go into business by requiring advanced degrees, and the schools that provide those degrees make a lot of money doing so. It's certainly not an industrial complex anywhere near that of people medicine, but it's definitely out of whack thanks to regulatory burdens.

I personally agree with the government that you should probably have an advanced degree before being allowed to cut into or administer drugs to a living creature.

I'm by no means advocating a YOLO approach of no requirements, but there's definitely unnecessary bloat in the requirements. Just looking at the incentives, the people who make the rules benefit financially from making those rules as arduous and all-encompassing as they can get away with, and in order to become a rule maker you have to be fully in the system, so it's a positive feedback loop. The same mechanism can be seen with licensing rules on haircutters and stylists.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#159
post #116

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

I was lucky enough to own a house next to the vet clinic that ended up being my first dogs final veterinarian. Her sickness was very gradual; a boil grew on her neck and started aspirating blood, she became anemic, and somewhat lethargic. I supplemented her diet as the vet walked me through everything I could possibly do and was willing to afford. She gave me her number to text when weird things happened with the cav…

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People spend too much time staring into their phones, consuming simple carbohydrates, and being sedentary. The world is better than it's ever been. We just don't take good care of ourselves.

What are you talking about? Peace in Europe is shattered. The former President of the United States has been indicted multiple times on dozens of felony charges. R&D on the killer bipedal robots + assassination drones + AI from your favorite sci-fi movies is nearing completion. Full Nineteen Eighty-Four -style surveillance totalitarianism has been rolled out in occupied China and is at the pilot stage in most western…

I could address each of these points and show how you've taken a narrow, specific stance to focus on the negative things in the world. I could point to hundreds of instances that show your view doesn't accurately represent the current state of the world or accurately place it in the context of history. It doesn't accurately account for the scale of historic cruelty, violence, famine, war, oppression, etc.

Steven Pinker wrote a whole book dedicated to the topic and I've asked ChatGPT to give us the Clifs Notes:

Historical Rates of Homicide: Using historical records, Pinker demonstrates that the rates of homicide in prehistoric tribes and ancient civilizations were much higher than in modern societies. For example, he cites studies of prehistoric grave sites where a significant percentage of skeletons show signs of violent death.

Decline of Violent Punishments: In medieval Europe, punishments like drawing and quartering, burning at the stake, and public disembowelment were commonplace. These have been abolished in modern times in favor of more humane treatments. Wars and Battle Deaths: Despite the two World Wars, the rate of deaths in interstate wars has declined since the mid-20th century. Pinker highlights the long stretches of peace between major powers and the decline in the number of genocides post-World War II.

Slavery and Torture: Practices such as slavery, once accepted and widespread, have been abolished in most of the world. Similarly, the use of torture has seen a significant decline, especially in Western societies.

Treatment of Minority Groups: Pinker discusses improvements in the rights and treatment of women, racial minorities, children, and LGBTQ+ individuals over the past centuries. Acts like domestic violence and hate crimes, which might once have been ignored or condoned, are now prosecuted.

Animal Rights: There’s been a growing concern for the well-being of animals, leading to changes in hunting practices, animal farming, and entertainment. Child-rearing Practices: Physical punishment of children, once seen as standard, has declined in many parts of the world. Many societies now view it as unnecessary or even harmful.

Data from Non-state Societies: Pinker contrasts the rates of violent death in non-state societies (like hunter-gatherer tribes) with state societies, noting that non-state societies often have higher rates of violent death.

Comparative Data: Pinker compares different periods and cultures, illustrating that Enlightenment-era Europe was less violent than medieval Europe, and that the 20th century, despite its wars, was less violent in terms of individual risk of death than previous centuries.

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