Live data from Hacker News

Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

blog.google

461–470 of 684 posts

Re: Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

#461
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that Apple allows sharing passkeys via Airdrop?

Doesn't that give access to everything you've signed in using that passkey? Rather than e.g. Sharing the password for the family Netflix account.

No... A passkey is specific to a context (RP), which is why they're not stored on things like Yubikeys (which I think a lot of people in this thread are confused about -- the keying material on the Yubikey isn't enough to create the passkey).

Your Netflix passkey is not the same as your passkey to other services. It's generated as soon as you enroll the passkey with Netflix (by calling "navigator.credentials.create()") and is identified by an opaque handle and also the public key (this is important, because you never get the public key again so you must keep both of these: the ID, and the Public Key, otherwise you can't verify a challenge-response, since you're only given an ID and a Digital Signature at that point).

For a site to use a passkey it calls "navigator.credentials.get({ publicKey: { challenge: ..., rpId: "" }, mediation: "silent" })"

Which returns the key ID and a signed version of the challenge, or an error.

Everywhere you authenticate you have one or more keys, identified by these opaque handles which are stored in the User Agent and associated with some mechanism for performing digital signatures with that unique key. The User Agent, generally, has to store and distribute this information if you want to use the same passkey across multiple devices -- even if you're using a Yubikey (because, again, it's not storing the key being used for the digital signature, it's storing a private key which is used in the process of generating the digital signature, but not the passkey's actual private key -- i.e., the secret part of the public key generated earlier)

Re: Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

#462

As others have pointed out, cryptographic authentication is very hard to bootstrap if you simply loose your device. Just last month my missus cracked the glass of her iPhone. Apple repaired it under AppleCare, which is great… except … that they didn’t tell her that the “glass repair” entails them replacing the guts of the phone and wiping it in the process. Apple iPhone backups don’t contain cryptographic secrets lik…

Your wife's experience sounds very bad and the risk of getting locked out of your various accounts is serious.

That doesn't mean giving up on having good security, though. Passkeys don't work like eSims and other users' situations might not be the same. Their failure modes will be different. They might have more than one device (like a phone and a tablet), or they might not use MS Authenticator for their email, or they might have set up different recovery methods?

We need more backups and user education, which ideally would include rehearsing account recovery before it's actually necessary.

Re: Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you believe that introducing support for passkeys inherently makes the situation worse? If you don't trust them, you're not forced to use them; traditional methods still exist. In any case, you should have multiple methods. It could be passkeys on multiple devices. It could be TOTP, plus recovery codes in a safe. Passkeys are just one more method. For the longest time, the gold standard for authenticating peop…

> If you don't trust them, you're not forced to use them; traditional methods still exist. I predict this will not be true always.

Yes, the security industry is probably going to shift massively to Passkeys over the next few years. Phishing is a massive issue for enterprise security, and Passkeys basically completely fix it.

IMO, this also means the problems with Passkeys will get fixed pretty quickly. And given I can already store my Passkey in 1Password and then use it on every device I currently use (including Firefox on mac/windows and iOS Safari), it's honestly not a huge problem.

I think passwords are a much bigger problem for people. Simple/re-used passwords are still incredibly common-place, and too many people don't realize how big of a problem that is. Once you incorporate a password manager so that you don't need to remember passwords... Passkeys via a password manager should be even easier to use, given you don't have to rely on browser extensions auto-detecting input fields.

Re: Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

#464

While I believe this is a step in the right direction. I have read too many horror stories of people who were locked out of their Google and iCloud accounts with no real possibility of getting back in. I don’t think I am alone in thinking I am on borrowed time. Someday, probably due to my own fault I will be locked out of Google and my digital life will be over. If a private company can offer a similar login method l…

Imagining pessimistic scenarios is useful if it spurs action. In this case, appropriate action would be to learn about Google's account recovery options and take advantage of them. Make sure you have multiple, independent ways of logging in. (For example, by printing out backup codes and keeping them with your important papers.)

But even this can't protect against getting locked out of your Google account due to some Google policy change, so ideally we'd rehearse how to get by without it.

Re: Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

#465

While I believe this is a step in the right direction. I have read too many horror stories of people who were locked out of their Google and iCloud accounts with no real possibility of getting back in. I don’t think I am alone in thinking I am on borrowed time. Someday, probably due to my own fault I will be locked out of Google and my digital life will be over. If a private company can offer a similar login method l…

Disaster recovery. This is 100% my biggest worry with 2FA/MFA. I also think this is one of the reasons stuff like PGP never took off (don't @ me regarding perfect forward secrecy): the problem has always been managing some little, precious thing and the ramifications of what happens if it put beyond use or is used by some bad actor.

I'm from Brazil, where as is known many robberies and assaults happen on the street, and ever since the whole process of putting essential life services into smartphones started, many people are adopting a scheme of having 2 smartphones (if not 3 or 4 for other reasons! ) :

1) The House smartphone → it is where you install everything truly vital, like the main bank app (started mainly because of this), 2FA apps like authy google microsoft equivalents, passwords, streaming apps (to do their 2FA), etc. This phone NEVER NEVER leaves the house, except ONCE if the bank app requires on location authentication of the phone for the bank app to function, which is common practice with traditional banks.

2) The Street Smartphone → you essentially create a ''street bank account'', deposit sufficient money for day-to-day transactions for some days or weeks, install the app, and only keep this app installed for any money use (many people also avoid even using the same bank as the main bank app, as the main bank usually is a traditional bank with physical locations to get help - and has tons of personal information stored - and the street bank usually is a fin-tech bank that people do not really trust like old banks, either economically or for security, but it has less personal data anyways). It also has the essencial social media like Whatsapp, instagram, some password manager like bitwarden or the apple-google cloud, and 2FA (the ones who actually use it) is avoided in this device.

3) the thief smartphone → many people like to take some old phone around to give to a thief if the need arises, this way even the street smartphone is saved. Might not work if the thief smartphone is too old or clearly broken though.

4) the work smartphone → the only mostly chill 2nd smartphone on the list, useful to keep private life separate from the professional life, and also is useful to avoid the boss sneaking into the worker's private life and devices. There was a scandal here when a provincial government out of the blue installed a whole app in the smartphones of teachers AND students with no warning or any control whatsoever, and many people got scared that the administrative google service app being used by all (google education or some s*t) pretty much allowed the devices to be remotely controlled and viewed by the employer , be it private or public, so many people assumed any work devices is or can be done the same.

Re: Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

#466

As others have pointed out, cryptographic authentication is very hard to bootstrap if you simply loose your device. Just last month my missus cracked the glass of her iPhone. Apple repaired it under AppleCare, which is great… except … that they didn’t tell her that the “glass repair” entails them replacing the guts of the phone and wiping it in the process. Apple iPhone backups don’t contain cryptographic secrets lik…

Add to that many web sites now make it a point of pride that they employ no humans in support and will not do anything to help you get back into your account if you are locked out (Google, Meta etc).

They employ humans in support - behind firewalls like follower counts.

If Neil deGrasse Tyson gets locked out of his Instagram, you can be damn well sure someone answers his support request.

If you or I, in two to four digit follower counts, have an issue? We can get fucked.

Damn near most companies do this with the social media PR teams, too. Any tags/mentions, messages, etc are filtered through software that decides how much cloud you have and thus how worthy of attention you are. Delta loses your guitar and you've got 100 followers? Nobody in the social media team is likely to even see it. Someone with 5000 followers, and a post about it gets a couple hundred likes/retweets? American is going to fall over themselves to make it right.

That's the great lie about social media - that you can use it to draw attention to a problem you're having. Unless you've cultivated a large enough following, you'll be completely ignored.

Re: Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't trust them, you're not forced to use them; traditional methods still exist. I predict this will not be true always.

Yes, the security industry is probably going to shift massively to Passkeys over the next few years. Phishing is a massive issue for enterprise security, and Passkeys basically completely fix it. IMO, this also means the problems with Passkeys will get fixed pretty quickly. And given I can already store my Passkey in 1Password and then use it on every device I currently use (including Firefox on mac/windows and iOS S…

How do you secure 1Password? With a passkey? See the loop?

Or a password? Wait, didn't we want to get rid of passwords? How is that any better?

The kinds of people with reused passwords all over the place won't use 1Password. And if you do use 1password to actually generate strong passwords you don't need passkeys and it works on all kinds of services without those having to support passkeys.

Re: Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

#468
post #13

As a user I still don't understand this. What happens if there's a house fire or something and all my devices where I'm logged in with Google break? How do I log into my account again?

And if I loose for some reason access to my phone number, termination of current number to create a new line with a new phone, I loose access to Gmail forever ?

* lose

Re: Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

#469
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the phone with a crappy 4 digit pin can be used to authenticate everything on every device the user owns that uses passkeys. It's a one stop shop of failure.

Phones are already that way. They have text messages and email which is enough to log into almost any service.

The argument is that without your phone, you likely have no recourse to stop the attack. Since your passkey on the phone is what controls your access, now.

Re: Passkeys are now enabled by default for Google users

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution would be to have a separate phone and phone number used solely for authenticating. It will never leave home, and never be used except to authenticate. Still vulnerable to home fire, however.

And what do you do when you go abroad and a web site says "Oh, looks like you are logging in from a new location - please check your SMS for a PIN now" :(

Use an SMS mule like the one described by

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28251107

I use "SMS Gate", an open source app available on F-Droid:

https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.axet.smsgate/

Post reply on HN