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Show HN: Building a 42-inch E-Ink frame for generative art

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Re: Show HN: Building a 42-inch E-Ink frame for generative art

#91

Post by BoorishBears »

LapsangGuzzler wrote: post #70
bigfudge wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be interesting to hear from an insider (with examples/evidence etc) what the mechanism is for eink to be more expensive. I/e/ the fundamentals for why this is the case beyond economies of scale. Given this history of the patent it looks to the outsider like this probably isn't the case and short sighted rent seeking is the problem. Would love to be wrong though, so if you do have a good explanation t…

I’m sure the ad-driven subsidy on TVs plays a huge part. TV prices have declined as “dumb” TVs have been phased out of the market. A more niche tool like a large e-ink display might not make as much sense from to price this way since ad systems need large networks of users to be relevant.

people underestimate how long e-ink stagnated: it seems hard to imagine an alternate timeline where e-ink had taken the place of current LED outdoor billboards for example... until you realize we were decades away from LEDs being cheap and robust enough for outdoor signage when eInk was already fundamentally similar enough the tech we have now

The company that owned the e-ink patents couldn't scale properly until they were acquired around 2010: in an alternate timeline where development open enough in the early 2000s, we might have ended up with eInk display modules large enough to be assembled into incrementally larger and more profit driving devices

Even now you see that with eInk store tags for example: imagine if the profit they're driving now had arrived 20 years ago and gotten re-invested

Re: Show HN: Building a 42-inch E-Ink frame for generative art

#92

Post by nomel »

prewett wrote: post #88
xnx wrote: post #18

Well done. There would be so many more cool applications of e-ink if it wasn't $2,500 for a 42" display: https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/42''MonochromeeP... (minimum order 3) For comparison a 42" full-color 60fps TV with remote, speakers, wifi, etc. etc. is $140. It seems like the patent holder could be making a lot more money if they dropped the price.

If it's a 4k TV it also has more pixels and better refresh rate. And color. But for that extra $2360 you get the feature that your image is still there when the power is off. I expect that feature would be substantially more costly regardless of the patent holder's extra.

> you get the feature that your image is still there when the power is off

How is that a realistic feature? Who is losing power and being happy that they spent a few thousand more, nearly 40x, than a 36" photo quality print, just so the image can remain while their lights are off?

Re: Show HN: Building a 42-inch E-Ink frame for generative art

#93

Post by qingcharles »

ThrowawayTestr wrote: post #81
xnx wrote: post #18

Well done. There would be so many more cool applications of e-ink if it wasn't $2,500 for a 42" display: https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/42''MonochromeeP... (minimum order 3) For comparison a 42" full-color 60fps TV with remote, speakers, wifi, etc. etc. is $140. It seems like the patent holder could be making a lot more money if they dropped the price.

The first flat panel tvs started in the $x000 price range. I'm amazed an eink display this big is actually affordable (minimum quantities aside).

My first 40" flat panel TV ran something around $6000 IIRC.

Re: Show HN: Building a 42-inch E-Ink frame for generative art

#94

Post by tomcam »

lawlessone wrote: post #44
graypegg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. I wonder what the whole-sale price is? A TV with wifi is partly subsidized by the ads you see when you turn it on. This 2500$ display seems like it’s for small run signage, so they know it’s being sold for government/business use. Probably a bit inflated. Does Rakutan/Amazon/Pocketbook really pay a similar cost/size ratio for the panels on their ereaders? I hope not!

>so they know it’s being sold for government/business use. Probably a bit inflated. You just reminded me, a few years ago i wanted to buy a transparent screen for a DIY project. The company said they couldn't sell it to me because they're b2b. I think it was both a volume thing and a tax thing.. and possibly a liability thing.

Or they may have no procedure for selling one-offs to end users. It’s not uncommon.

Re: Show HN: Building a 42-inch E-Ink frame for generative art

#95

Post by k1t »

nomel wrote: post #92
prewett wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's a 4k TV it also has more pixels and better refresh rate. And color. But for that extra $2360 you get the feature that your image is still there when the power is off. I expect that feature would be substantially more costly regardless of the patent holder's extra.

> you get the feature that your image is still there when the power is off How is that a realistic feature? Who is losing power and being happy that they spent a few thousand more, nearly 40x, than a 36" photo quality print, just so the image can remain while their lights are off?

The point is that it only uses power when changing the image, so a small battery can run it for a long time - not that it works during a power outage.

(and of course it is a lot easier to change than a printed photo)

Re: Show HN: Building a 42-inch E-Ink frame for generative art

#97

Post by bigmattystyles »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #38
xnx wrote: post #18

Well done. There would be so many more cool applications of e-ink if it wasn't $2,500 for a 42" display: https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/42''MonochromeeP... (minimum order 3) For comparison a 42" full-color 60fps TV with remote, speakers, wifi, etc. etc. is $140. It seems like the patent holder could be making a lot more money if they dropped the price.

>For comparison a 42" full-color 60fps TV with remote, speakers, wifi, etc. etc. is $140. Because it's a lot easier and cheaper to manufacture large LCD panels at scale than E-ink film. >It seems like the patent holder could be making a lot more money if they dropped the price. I don't know any company or shareholders that would say no to making more money so if this would actually be true then it would, but that's n…

One thing I don’t understand - why are the iPhone screens that can run in display mode run at 1hz a feature - what’s hard about driving a display typically driven at 120hz(?) at 1hz to save on power difficult? Or it’s not and the it’s a differentiating feature price.

Re: Show HN: Building a 42-inch E-Ink frame for generative art

#99

Post by malfist »

prewett wrote: post #88
xnx wrote: post #18

Well done. There would be so many more cool applications of e-ink if it wasn't $2,500 for a 42" display: https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/42''MonochromeeP... (minimum order 3) For comparison a 42" full-color 60fps TV with remote, speakers, wifi, etc. etc. is $140. It seems like the patent holder could be making a lot more money if they dropped the price.

If it's a 4k TV it also has more pixels and better refresh rate. And color. But for that extra $2360 you get the feature that your image is still there when the power is off. I expect that feature would be substantially more costly regardless of the patent holder's extra.

But that's not the only benefit of eink.

EInk doesn't have a backlight. So it's easy to see in glaring light. It's also not disruptive if so, you want to use it as a digital picture frame and you don't want light from the display bothering your eyes day and night.

EInk is a more peaceful display technology, and some people put a lot of value on that.

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