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Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

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Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fixing education? What does education have to do with this? Are we really still pretending in this day and age that education is some magical panacea to fix even a fraction of the ills? A populace with a lot of education and a poor means to earn a living wage just means you'll end up with a lot of educated poor people. The current way of things is an anomaly in human history. You can't have a continuous consolidation…

education prevents people from doing a lot of dumb things, yes

Intelligent people with idle hands tend to cause trouble because they believe in their own worth.

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I know, basic income means that everybody receives a fixed income, rich or poor. People frame it like that, but in practice it would be offset by increased taxes for most. For example, everyone gets $20,000 per year as "universal" basic income. However, your taxes go up $20,000 per year or more because you weren't in the lowest tax bracket. We have to pay for the UBI somehow. UBI of a substantial amount w…

A UBI based on an income tax is not feasible due to the feedback cycle it would engender. As the UBI goes up the % of people who would make the same or greater incomes by quitting and taking UBI would go up. Raising UBI would be extremely popular politically and would go up quickly. This would either drive inflation out of control or erode the income tax base over time until it no longer could support the UBI. Either…

> As the UBI goes up the % of people who would make the same or greater incomes by quitting and taking UBI would go up.

That’s not how UBI works. It’s not tied to quitting one’s job. Anyone working earns income from salary/wages in addition to their UBI. Unlike many existing entitlements, there is never a financial incentive to work less.

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#133
This is poorly reported. From the article:

* Group A reported a 26% increase in participants staying in housing they rented or owned;

* Group B reported a 35% increase in housing they rented or owned;

* And Group C, which received the smaller sum of money, reported a 20% increase in renting or owning housing.

But these are not actually percentages - these are percentage points!

* Group A went from 8% to 34% - a 4.25x increase

* Group B went from 5% to 40% - an 8x increase

* Group C went from 11% to 30% - a 2.7x increase

Which is a lot more dramatic than saying 20% vs 26% vs 35%.

The study authors might have good reason for reporting it this way, such as many participants dropped out of the study before follow-up, which probably skews toward people with more chaotic lifestyles. So the denominator for each group has changed at follow-up and could at least partially explain why all groups saw improvements.

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#134

I'm actually amazed at how little basic income helps people. The study had a control group which only received $50/month in aid (vs treatment groups that got $1000 a month or $6500 upfront and then $500 a month). The control group improved nearly as much as either of the treatment groups! In terms of housing, the $1000 a month group only improved by 6% more than the $50 group. That is to say, even if you just give pe…

I have to say, I was interested in your analysis, it inspired me to read the article for once. It seems your conclusion is quite the opposite of the one in the article. You're free to draw your own conclusions, but often when you see this there's something being left out.

As and aside, it's fascinating how effective the $50 is. It definitely does look like you get diminished returns quickly, though.

(From TA) "staying in housing they rented or owned"

I suspect there's something not being captured here. I'm wondering if there's somehow an option in between "staying in housing they rented or owned", and homelessness.

Perhaps, they're managing to staying with friends and family for part of it. I could see there being some gray area here. The morality of intentionally staying homeless to save money could be debated in various scenarios.

It's also ignoring a number of other dimensions of wellbeing that did improve only in the higher paid groups. Feeling safe where they slept, welcome in society, and maybe most importantly employment.

It's only if you look really close at one metric, which has moral judgements attached to it, and maybe explainable by living arrangement other than pure homelessness (keep in mind the criteria "pays rent or owns house") that things look so pessimistic.

Seems like the discourse on this topic is not permitted to involve the happiness, security, and likely long term outlook (due to being more employed, not just happy feelings). According to your analysis, we basically disregard the wellness of the homeless, and are only permitted to consider how it impacts us.

This is not an unfair critique, you mention some of these things, but they're handwaved away. I think you got the mental health aspect wrong, but quite frankly the results are confusing and a little mixed. The article itself doesn't do it justice.

It should be noted though that this is also trying to completely turn around someone's life, according to one metric for $6000 in 6-months. They know it's gonna end in 6-months. You can only do so much with this. I know you're using the term in the study, but this says nothing about universal basic income, or long term base assistances.

Also, I can't help but note all participants mental health was shown as decreasing, which is just odd. I double checked and it looks like this is 6 months from enrolment, so this is right after getting booted from the program. This is not a shock. People with mental health problems have issues leaving programs THEY paid for.

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#135

[flagged]

Because they were born into it, people forget the US has been in a 70 year “blip” that’s pretty ahistorical and clearly not sustainable. More likely then UBI or universal living wages, we’ll just see a return to communal living with shared responsibilities and far more modest personal luxuries: more multi-generational homes, a return of boarding houses and flops, etc It doesn’t look anything like what we grew up imag…

Good point. As a counterpoint but not a rebuttal, places exist with the wealth for single-family homes and pensions to be within reach for almost every citizen - Switzerland, Austria, the nordics. Conditions there are not necessarily replicable in America or my own country. However, a culture of social democracy and investing in the citizenry looks to be a factor, and our countries' prioritisation of minimising tax for the rich and minimising social spend is a pretty good way to prevent this kind of citizen wealth. So fuck us for our short-sightedness.

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#136

I'm actually amazed at how little basic income helps people. The study had a control group which only received $50/month in aid (vs treatment groups that got $1000 a month or $6500 upfront and then $500 a month). The control group improved nearly as much as either of the treatment groups! In terms of housing, the $1000 a month group only improved by 6% more than the $50 group. That is to say, even if you just give pe…

> the extra $950 per month does surprisingly little in this population. It makes sense - housing tends to cost just a bit more than that. Just two or three times more. It can often be better spent on things that matter more than housing, especially if one doesn't want to live with a roommate. I wouldn't think this way personally, I would want somewhere to live at the bare minimum. But homeless is an entire spectrum.

Could there be categories other than "pays rent or owns home" and "homelessness"?

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#137

This is poorly reported. From the article: * Group A reported a 26% increase in participants staying in housing they rented or owned; * Group B reported a 35% increase in housing they rented or owned; * And Group C, which received the smaller sum of money, reported a 20% increase in renting or owning housing. But these are not actually percentages - these are percentage points ! * Group A went from 8% to 34% - a 4.25…

Reporting it in the more dramatic way puts a lot of emphasis on the starting conditions of what were supposed to be randomized groups - I think it would be more misleading the way you propose. If you invert it and report on the % reduction in the bad thing, the numbers would be almost the same as those they report.

The part about people dropping out is complete speculation, right?

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#138

I'm actually amazed at how little basic income helps people. The study had a control group which only received $50/month in aid (vs treatment groups that got $1000 a month or $6500 upfront and then $500 a month). The control group improved nearly as much as either of the treatment groups! In terms of housing, the $1000 a month group only improved by 6% more than the $50 group. That is to say, even if you just give pe…

> In terms of housing, the $1000 a month group only improved by 6% more than the $50 group. 6 percentage points more, not 6% more. Kind of a big difference. A 26% increase is 30% more than a 20% increase. Group B has a 75% increase in participants finding housing compared to the control group. > That is to say, even if you just give people enough money every month to get an apartment with a roommate, only 6% will act…

>Kind of a big difference. A 26% increase is 30% more than a 20% increase

Percentage point changes are the right measurement. If the treatment group rose by 1%, and the control group rose by 0.1%, would you be excited that the treatment group was 1000% higher improvement than control?

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#139

The massive increase seen in the control group seems to indicate that either ~5% of the money delivers >50% of the benefit, or there were some other factors that were more significant than the money.

It seems to me like demand effects[1] could explain a large fraction of the observed behavior.

People like being given money. If you tell them you're conducting a study to determine if giving them leads to them doing XYZ, it should come as no surprise when they do XYZ, even if the money didn't literally enable it: they are incentivized to XYZ all they can in order to keep the money pump flowing.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_characteristics

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