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Engineered material can reconnect severed nerves

news.rice.edu

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Re: Engineered material can reconnect severed nerves

#41
post #32

Neural lace when?

Considering how hard it is to actually fix any accidental damage to brain cells and nerves, and the far-reaching consequences of such damage, I am always amazed to see how many are eager to just plug something into it and let some arbitrary code send electric shocks through their brain. I get the unfathomable potential of the thing, and the appeal of said potential. But that’s a product I won’t be an early-adopter of…

Oh, me neither! But growing up reading scifi and cyberpunk in particular, one has to wonder.

Re: Engineered material can reconnect severed nerves

#42
post #32

Neural lace when?

Considering how hard it is to actually fix any accidental damage to brain cells and nerves, and the far-reaching consequences of such damage, I am always amazed to see how many are eager to just plug something into it and let some arbitrary code send electric shocks through their brain. I get the unfathomable potential of the thing, and the appeal of said potential. But that’s a product I won’t be an early-adopter of…

Yeah, every time something like that is mentioned, I just think of small issues that could cause noise on the output. Basically if you wear some device that helps you, either passive like glasses or active like a hearing aid, you can immediately disconnect then if needed. But imagine an implant bugs out and you start receiving a maximum signal for something without being able to stop. Like a blinding bright light which doesn't go away when you close your eyes. As much as the cyberpunk idea is fun, I'd have to really suffer without some implant to risk it.

Re: Engineered material can reconnect severed nerves

#43

I've always found it incongruous that we can move a person's body around the globe at 900 kilometers per hour for 25 hours for under $1500 but for 1000x that price and even with 1000x that time we can't bridge the distance between a brain and a foot.

People think medicine is way more advanced that it actually is. We can't add back some crystals on a tooth. We can't re-attach a nail to a nail bed. We can't fix cartilage. We can't physically repair arteries (short of donor material) or varicose veins. List goes on and on.

Re: Engineered material can reconnect severed nerves

#44
post #2

I'm not a medical person, can anyone who knows more than me explain exactly how cool this is? Fixing spinal cords, or just repairing simple nerve severance?

Even small nerve injuries can be life changing. Friend my motor cycle rat friends hit a bridge abutment. Severed the nerves in his right shoulder. He has no feeling in and cannot move his arm. So being able to fix that would be a big deal for people affected.

Re: Engineered material can reconnect severed nerves

#46

I've always found it incongruous that we can move a person's body around the globe at 900 kilometers per hour for 25 hours for under $1500 but for 1000x that price and even with 1000x that time we can't bridge the distance between a brain and a foot.

Given enough curiosity, anyone can understand how and why a jet plane works in as much or as little detail as they want. Planes were engineered by humans from first principles and we're good at both documenting our inventions and understanding those first principles.

Building something to interface with a biological system, though, is another matter entirely. It could as well be alien technology. It requires reverse engineering a lot of extremely complex stuff that was not designed by our civilization. So incomprehensibly complex that we only fairly recently made enough progress in other fields to be able to build tools to meaningfully poke at it.

Re: Engineered material can reconnect severed nerves

#47
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we only ever wanted to reconnect nerves of fetuses that might be relevant.

There's no reason to be glib. If patients' brains can reconfigure following trauma such as strokes [1] or having our entire visual field flipped [2] there's no reason to assume one couldn't reroute around having nerves hooked up differently. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK326735/ [2] https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable...

Can speak from personal experience. Traumatic incident which severed the nerves to my leg in multiple places. Nerves eventually regrew and reconnected within the leg, and then again where they were severed in the foot.

Motor and senory nerves reacted differently.

When motor nerves reconnected, I still couldn't contract the muscles and went through a series of steps to relearn how to use the limb. First I was trying to "move" the leg, but effectively the "IP address" for the leg was changed so my "move" signals were going to where my head thought the leg was instead of to the new connection. Instead, I would estim a specific muscle and "listen" in my head for where "noise" was coming from. That "noise" was the electric buzzing from the estim'd muscle contraction. Eventually, I learned how to concentrate to make a muscle contract, and many steps later (pun intended), I learned to walk again.

Sensory nerves didn't need a push signal, they're like a constant inbound feed when connected. When the sensory nerves reconnected, it is something you definitely notice. Going about your day, and suddenly you feel an jolt, like being shocked, and over the next few hours to days the area that is reconnecting is burning, stinging, feels like it is being crushed by pressure, and cold all at the same time. It was much more intense than when your arm falls asleep. The sensation can be maddening but it eventually passes as your body begins to sort and acclimate the signals.

All of these steps on calibrating the sensory nerves and learning how to contract and coordinate muscles is something we take for granted as people usually sort it out when they're infants.

Re: Engineered material can reconnect severed nerves

#48

I've always found it incongruous that we can move a person's body around the globe at 900 kilometers per hour for 25 hours for under $1500 but for 1000x that price and even with 1000x that time we can't bridge the distance between a brain and a foot.

Individual science disciplines advance at a very uneven speed and with different start points in history. We have always (OK, at least since Ancient Egypt) known more about mathematics than about physics. We have always (...) known more about physics than about chemistry. We have always (...) known more about chemistry than about our bodies. The available technology mirrors that.

And biology in particular is unique because it requires other fields to progress pretty far for the tools necessary for comprehensive biological research to become possible. As in, a microscope is a prerequisite for the discovery of cells and microorganisms.

Re: Engineered material can reconnect severed nerves

#49
post #47
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no reason to be glib. If patients' brains can reconfigure following trauma such as strokes [1] or having our entire visual field flipped [2] there's no reason to assume one couldn't reroute around having nerves hooked up differently. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK326735/ [2] https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable...

Can speak from personal experience. Traumatic incident which severed the nerves to my leg in multiple places. Nerves eventually regrew and reconnected within the leg, and then again where they were severed in the foot. Motor and senory nerves reacted differently. When motor nerves reconnected, I still couldn't contract the muscles and went through a series of steps to relearn how to use the limb. First I was trying t…

I've had exactly these experiences following a spinal injury -- fracture of a vertebra but with minimal cord damage and quite a lot of disruption to the dorsal root ganglia.

You can't put into words how weird it is to fall over because your brain thinks your foot is somewhere it isn't. Or how suddenly you become incredibly aware of how the front of your calf feels. Or how overjoyed you are to be able to move your toes again for the first time in a year. It's not like what you see on the movies.

Wallerian degeneration -- yes, degeneration -- is part of the healing process of some grades of nerve injury. Things literally get worse before they get better, as the fragment left of the crushed axon degenerates to its root and then regrows. It's incredibly slow -- around 1mm/day at most -- and a matter of probabilities. What's also worth mentioning is that there are plenty of internal nerves too, where restoring function after a trauma would be life-changing -- like the Vegas nerve, which buggers up lots of things if damaged slightly, or, in my case, some of the nerves in the fundus and neck of the bladder, meaning that my toileting is really very different than it was before.

I'm glad you're doing better, and hope you continue to do so. I've no idea if the device the article is talking about will ever help, but nerve injuries cause so much disability worldwide I'm glad they're continuing to be worked on.

Re: Engineered material can reconnect severed nerves

#50

Would it be possible in a sci-fi near-future to transplant a new, lab-grown vertebral column, using something like this?

speaking of scifi

I wonder... especially after reading about people developing limbs or fingers they don't have:

"Some of CTRL-Labs’ goals are mind-bendingly exotic, like training a model for controlling extra fingers.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/6/17433516/ctrl-labs-brain-c...

I wonder if we could augment/cross our nerves to control things we normally can't control? what if we could release hormones on demand, like maybe release adrenaline or calm down?

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