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Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

denverite.com

51–60 of 188 posts

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#51

[flagged]

Historically, "contributing to society" meant directly or indirectly contributing to resource extraction. Now that we are coming to understand that model is not sustainable, perhaps we should re-think what it means to contribute to society. I could see an argument that people who constantly fly internationally are more of a net harm than people who don't, for instance.

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#52

[flagged]

> I don't see a path where citizens come together to agree on a UBI.

In a convoluted, bureaucratic way, we have many of the pieces of UBI (welfare, unemployment, social security, minimum wage). We just lack the "universal" part. I agree that UBI is contentious, but I wouldn't be surprised if UBI dressed up in some definitely-not-socialism clothing eventually reaches critical mass of support.

> fixing the hard things like education

Sure. Hard, but not controversial.

> ...or reducing reproduction amongst the population that cannot raise children to a standard that is contributing to society.

Excuse me, what? Who gets to decide who has kids and who doesn't? Unless you have some clever voluntary economic way to affect this, then it sounds a lot like eugenics.

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#53

[flagged]

> reducing reproduction amongst the population that cannot raise children to a standard that is contributing to society.

I'm getting major eugenics vibes from that comment. I'm not saying you're for forcible population control, but it's just a tiny hop and a skip from the "poor people are so burdened by having children that they just shouldn't" to "poor people are too dumb to realize that they should not have children so we should 'help' them not reproduce".

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#54

[flagged]

A UBI does seem much easier than, say, fixing education or making raising children cheaper. It would currently cost about 20% of US GDP to give everyone a thousand dollars a month, so not feasible yet in the US, let alone in other countries. But we might get there soon.

By reactive, do you mean addressing symptoms rather than causes?

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#55

[flagged]

I don't think UBI is a politically stable idea. It will be diluted by different initiatives to favour certain groups over others, and the actual UBI income will soon be eaten by inflation. Fast forward 10 years and the same problems will remain.

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#56
post #4

But this is not what basic income is about, is it? As far as I know, basic income means that everybody receives a fixed income, rich or poor. What happens in Denver is just a social project, the only thing mildly special about it is that recipients didn't have to do anything in return. But there have been many of such projects in countries all over the world.

This is still a study about UBI, it's looking at differences based on how the income is delivered. A part of UBI, different from other types of aid, is that the recipient can spend the money however they see fit. There are question about how well this will work. Will the recipients benefit or suffer by not being restricted in how they spend? Will they benefit or suffer by being given the money all at once at the beginning of the year vs receiving monthly sums? These are good questions without obvious answers.

If you want to understand more about their study, their methods are available. It answers a lot of the comments below. They do make a distinction and call this "Guaranteed Basic Income" since it targets a subset population: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/64f507a995b636019ef88...

https://www.denverbasicincomeproject.org/research

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously have never lived with unstable people who often live just above the poverty line. There’s a reason why share houses and shelters don’t work.

We live just barely above that line, and recently got $600/mo of food stamps revoked, which did an order of magnitude more harm than the pitiful raise that got us there.

The abrupt cutoff for benefits is one of the most inept things the government has ever done. A reduction in benefits should always be less than the increase in income.

Re: Is giving people cash working? Six months of Denver's Basic Income Project

#60

[flagged]

UBI is a practical solution.

Education and reproductive changes don’t alter the reality that you can spend years working on developing skills in an industry that rapidly disappears due to technological upheaval. It also doesn’t change the fact that you can’t remedy a plummeting number of jobs for low-educated people by educating everyone.

Will pilots be necessary in ten years? Twenty? Fifty? What do we do about the fact that we need them now, but we won’t in an unpredictable amount of time?

Will truck drivers be necessary in ten years? Twenty? Fifty? Do you think they will all be amenable to retraining as full-stack developers and financial analysts? Do you think we could even absorb that number of people in other industries, even if we could retrain everyone? And what happens when the jobs they retrained for disappear in five or ten years?

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