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Why the singularity may never arrive

maximise.dk

11–20 of 51 posts

Re: Why the singularity may never arrive

#11
post #4

Interesting suggestion that resources for computing will eventually run out in some fashion, thereby invalidating the Singularity prediction. But what resources? I wonder where energy costs fit into this. Already, Internet companies are seeing energy as a significant part of the costs for running their business. How much energy would be consumed by a $1000 computer with the same computing capacity as the entire human…

Perhaps this cost will be the overhead of managing the increasing amount of information, with its storage, indexing, and relationships.

Re: Why the singularity may never arrive

#12

A $1000 computer with the equivalent knowledge of the whole human race won't happen because it is physically impossible. There are 10^11 neurons or so in the brain. There are 10^10 (say) people in the world (more like 0.5 X 10^10 but anyway). So loosely there is an order of 10^20 neurons in humans on earth total. Avogadro's number has approx. 6 * 10^23 atoms in 12 grams of carbon, so, basically, you'd have to have 1…

You could have a computer that can simulate one brain (or whatever "equivalent" means), but runs 6 billion times as fast as a human's -- or any of those factors in between (1000 brains, 6 million times speed).

Re: Why the singularity may never arrive

#13
post #5
post #3

This article is overly simplistic to the point of uselessness. Population growth peaked in 1963 not because of food production limits but because of cultural and social changes related to growing wealth. That destroys the whole Malthusian argument. Similar demolitions can be performed on the rest of the article's key points: The same thing will happen with technology - eventually we will run into insurmountable barri…

I'm sure Kurzweil knows about Malthus. The point is that nowhere in nature or sociology is there such a thing as unlimited exponential growth - it is always stopped by lack of resources. Why should computation be any different?

The Malthusian curve occurs because progress impedes progress. The more you grow, the less resources you have to grow with.

Technology doesn't work that way. Technology feeds technology. Therefore, the curve will not look like the Malthus curve.

Kurzweil doesn't claim it'll actually go forever. That's a strawman. He simply observes that technology feeding technology is a different shape.

Technology feeding technology would probably look more like a exponential curve that hits a very sudden wall at the limit point, whatever it may be, rather than a gradual falloff.

Re: Why the singularity may never arrive

#14
Kurzweil deals with this "S-curve" phenomenon extensively in his books. He shows that each individual computing technology follows an S curve, but the exponential price-performance of computation continues through a smooth transition to the next method. For example, as vacuum tube computing saturated, transistor computing picked up. This is not a coincidence; as one technology reaches saturation, resources flow to the bottleneck, fostering the next technique in the chain.

Intel hit just such a wall a few years ago with the size of its gates. Many had predicted, based on this bottleneck, that Moore's Law might end some time around 2003-2005. Intel's CTO Justin Rattner explained at this year's Singularity Summit that there are smart people at Intel, and they found a way around the problem. In fact, the transition was so smooth that few people even noticed.

And so it goes. The computational capacity of matter is effectively infinite on the scale of current technology, so there's no reason to expect computation to saturate for a long time. Barring a global cataclysm, it's hard to see anything standing in the way of a technological singularity some time in the next 50-100 years.

Re: Why the singularity may never arrive

#15

A $1000 computer with the equivalent knowledge of the whole human race won't happen because it is physically impossible. There are 10^11 neurons or so in the brain. There are 10^10 (say) people in the world (more like 0.5 X 10^10 but anyway). So loosely there is an order of 10^20 neurons in humans on earth total. Avogadro's number has approx. 6 * 10^23 atoms in 12 grams of carbon, so, basically, you'd have to have 1…

You're thinking with modern technology, not future technology. What if $1000 (minus change to account for resource usage) bought me a computer seed that grew into a massive supercomputer in some relatively-short timeframe?

If self-replicating technology is possible, then $1000 for that much computer power would actually be a ripoff.

(I'm not claiming that such a thing is possible, per se. But then again, we are such seeds ourselves, or rather, seeds that grow one human's worth of computing power, so it's hard to argue that this is physically impossible. People who doubt this is possible need to explain why we're going to run out of progress before we figure out enough about biology to trick some existing organism into doing something like this for us. We don't even have to build the things ourselves...)

Arguing about whether the singularity is possible is a waste of time. Truth is that according to the original definition, it's pretty much inevitable, according to the physics we already know and the engineering that we can almost already do. The real argument people are trying to have is over the final limits of technology, and an awful lot of people argue for limits that are far, far too low, with very feasible paths for passing the limits plainly in view even today.

Re: Why the singularity may never arrive

#16
post #2

I always thought that Kurzweil was too simplistic in the way he comes to his conclusions and this points to just a couple of the reasons. I think if we ever hit singularity, it will be because of some black swans spikes and leaps, not because of a gradual curve.

This article is even more simplistic.

"This chart looks like this chart - therefore they are the same... The reason is because they are limited by some kind of resource, but I have no idea what that is"

Re: Why the singularity may never arrive

#17
I don't think the hole for the singularity argument is necessarily that technological progress, measured by CPU speed or accessible memory or bandwidth or whatever, will necessarily slow.

I think that the hole is probably "We have virtually inexhaustible amounts of X and THIS MEANS MAGIC HAPPENS."

There are many resources for humans which were, in certain times and places, very, very finite. Let me give you a trivial example: drinking water that wouldn't kill you. The history of humanity up until quite recently was the history of drinking water.

However, most areas of major Western nations hit, effectively, the Drinking Water Singularity a long time ago: you can get what are (relative to historical needs and prices) infinite amounts for nothing. (Seriously: think of how much human labor it costs to draw one bucket of water from the well located several miles from your village. Mentally got an idea for how much? OK, now how much labor does it take a McDonalds employee to afford one bucket worth of tap water? What, maybe a quarter of a second, if that?)

The change from cholera outbreaks to no cholera outbreaks, which happened way the heck back on that curve, had PROFOUND consequences for civilization. The change from "I could fill up a swimming pool for a trivial amount of money" to "I could fill up TEN swimming pools for a trivial amount of money" had negligible consequences for civilization. All that water wealth, nothing of major consequence to spend it on.

(I know, I'm overlooking the fact that certain areas like the American Southwest are actually facing water crunchiness again, and large portions of the human population still fail to have their basic needs met. Ignore that for the purpose of simplification -- and incidentally, "You can have all the water you can drink but you can't water your lawn in the daytime" is still singularity-esque relative to "Send a woman to walk a mile to bring back a bucket of water".)

That is how I see the technology singularity coming about: what if I gave you all the CPU cycles you could want for nothing and you found, after a certain point, you had nothing of major consequence to spend them on? What are you going to do, calculate a new Mersenne Prime every second for eternity and call it the singularity?

[Edit: I originally said typhus, not cholera. Typhus is not caused by water quality issues. Sorry, it has been a long time since I played Oregon Trail.]

Re: Why the singularity may never arrive

#18
post #5
post #3

This article is overly simplistic to the point of uselessness. Population growth peaked in 1963 not because of food production limits but because of cultural and social changes related to growing wealth. That destroys the whole Malthusian argument. Similar demolitions can be performed on the rest of the article's key points: The same thing will happen with technology - eventually we will run into insurmountable barri…

I'm sure Kurzweil knows about Malthus. The point is that nowhere in nature or sociology is there such a thing as unlimited exponential growth - it is always stopped by lack of resources. Why should computation be any different?

The difference is that we are probably nowhere near the Malthus limit in technology. The equivalent of the Malthus limit for technology would be when the universe was saturated with intelligent matter - intelligent matter that would probably make our current CPUs look like vacuum tubes. Even the most optimistic singularitarian wouldn't predict this would be happening any time soon. .

Re: Why the singularity may never arrive

#19
post #4

Interesting suggestion that resources for computing will eventually run out in some fashion, thereby invalidating the Singularity prediction. But what resources? I wonder where energy costs fit into this. Already, Internet companies are seeing energy as a significant part of the costs for running their business. How much energy would be consumed by a $1000 computer with the same computing capacity as the entire human…

[deleted]

Re: Why the singularity may never arrive

#20
post #5
post #3

This article is overly simplistic to the point of uselessness. Population growth peaked in 1963 not because of food production limits but because of cultural and social changes related to growing wealth. That destroys the whole Malthusian argument. Similar demolitions can be performed on the rest of the article's key points: The same thing will happen with technology - eventually we will run into insurmountable barri…

I'm sure Kurzweil knows about Malthus. The point is that nowhere in nature or sociology is there such a thing as unlimited exponential growth - it is always stopped by lack of resources. Why should computation be any different?

Nothing in nature has the power to actively manage its resources. Bacteria can't build a bigger petri dish or perhaps they wouldn't stop growing.

Humans could grow their food sources to match massive population growth (up to some maximum amount determined by the Earth's natural resources) our country did it. Many impoverished nations did not, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

If computers can just become intelligent enough to spread beyond Earth, given the energy they have available now (which clearly they can since we did) they would theoretically be limited only by the amount of energy in the universe, but the curve would stay vertical for so long as to be effectively infinite.

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