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The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

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Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#101

Post by selimthegrim »

piracythrowaway wrote: post #100
rayiner wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> voting in New York seems to be more third-world style ethnic warfare > People vote along ethnic/racial lines (look at the primary voting for Adams versus Yang versus Garcia) This seems to imply something quite other than a broad cross-racial constituency. It also seems to fit oddly with the fact that progressives of all races voted against Adams. And why mention Garcia if there "wasn't a major Latino candidate"? Lo…

The secularism as class marker bit really ground my gears.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#102

Post by rayiner »

piracythrowaway wrote: post #100
rayiner wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> voting in New York seems to be more third-world style ethnic warfare > People vote along ethnic/racial lines (look at the primary voting for Adams versus Yang versus Garcia) This seems to imply something quite other than a broad cross-racial constituency. It also seems to fit oddly with the fact that progressives of all races voted against Adams. And why mention Garcia if there "wasn't a major Latino candidate"? Lo…

Garcia is white—her maiden name is McIver. So the black candidate got the majority of black support, the white candidate got the majority of whites, the Asian won the majority of Asians. Adams expressly campaigned on starkly racial terms: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/20/nyregion/adams-yang-race-..., https://nypost.com/2021/06/20/adams-rips-garcia-yang-for-all....

I might find Adams’ criticisms of white progressives amusing, but it’s not a recipe for building a city focused on getting the trains to run on time.

> It also seems to fit oddly with the fact that progressives of all races voted against Adams.

Progressives make up a small percentage of the electorate. The fact that racial conflict plays a major and destructive role in city politics doesn’t mean there aren’t also other issues in play.

I don’t know what makes you think I’m “trolling.” Show me a city that, like NYC, has an established history of ethnic partisanship in politics but also has an effective government?

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#103

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #102
piracythrowaway wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> voting in New York seems to be more third-world style ethnic warfare > People vote along ethnic/racial lines (look at the primary voting for Adams versus Yang versus Garcia) This seems to imply something quite other than a broad cross-racial constituency. It also seems to fit oddly with the fact that progressives of all races voted against Adams. And why mention Garcia if there "wasn't a major Latino candidate"? Lo…

Garcia is white—her maiden name is McIver. So the black candidate got the majority of black support, the white candidate got the majority of whites, the Asian won the majority of Asians. Adams expressly campaigned on starkly racial terms: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/20/nyregion/adams-yang-race-... , https://nypost.com/2021/06/20/adams-rips-garcia-yang-for-all... . I might find Adams’ criticisms of white progressi…

As you well know, when you're wading into volatile arguments here --- and the racial dynamics of elections are obviously that, for multiple reasons! --- the onus is on you, the commenter, to prevent spontaneous conflagration by writing carefully and hedging away the most noxious interpretations of what you're writing. You share responsibility for how your writing is interpreted. You've long since given up on that, which is why you're finding so much of what you write so unwelcome here.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#104

Post by JambalayaJim »

ghaff wrote: post #59
JambalayaJim wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. People don’t want people driving into their cities and making noise/ taking up a bunch of space with their cars. We have zero problems with people taking transit in. Suburban residents want to treat the city as both a low density car friendly space and a place filled with culture/concerts/plays/restaurants, not realizing that the two are opposites.

Except that taking transit in, especially for an evening event, is often not a reasonable option. I'll happily take commuter rail in if I have to go into our urban office for the day but it's utterly unworkable for an evening event given how few trains there are and how long they take. And this is a city (Boston/Cambridge) with relatively good transit options. If driving in for the evening became any more difficult t…

The money saved from reduced vehicles in the city can and should go into expanded commuter service, I absolutely agree. There is a cultural element to this as well - many suburbanites feel that transit is beneath them.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#105

Post by rayiner »

tptacek wrote: post #103
rayiner wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Garcia is white—her maiden name is McIver. So the black candidate got the majority of black support, the white candidate got the majority of whites, the Asian won the majority of Asians. Adams expressly campaigned on starkly racial terms: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/20/nyregion/adams-yang-race-... , https://nypost.com/2021/06/20/adams-rips-garcia-yang-for-all... . I might find Adams’ criticisms of white progressi…

As you well know, when you're wading into volatile arguments here --- and the racial dynamics of elections are obviously that, for multiple reasons! --- the onus is on you, the commenter, to prevent spontaneous conflagration by writing carefully and hedging away the most noxious interpretations of what you're writing. You share responsibility for how your writing is interpreted. You've long since given up on that, wh…

OP isn’t overreading my point, he’s disagreeing on the merits. Correcting the misconception about Garcia’s race, I don’t see how anyone could disagree that NYC has quite bitter racial politics, and that’s long been true.

The crux of our disagreement seems to boil down to him wanting to avoid the implication that New York’s racial politics is a bad thing for the city’s governance, and me not caring about doing so. That’s fine, we don’t need to defensively write around each other’s pieties.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#106

Post by rayiner »

selimthegrim wrote: post #101
piracythrowaway wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> voting in New York seems to be more third-world style ethnic warfare > People vote along ethnic/racial lines (look at the primary voting for Adams versus Yang versus Garcia) This seems to imply something quite other than a broad cross-racial constituency. It also seems to fit oddly with the fact that progressives of all races voted against Adams. And why mention Garcia if there "wasn't a major Latino candidate"? Lo…

The secularism as class marker bit really ground my gears.

In both america and Bangladesh, moreso in the latter, secularism is a structured form of elite oppression against the masses. In America it reflects the American elites’ belief in the moral superiority of the French, while in Bangladesh it reflects the Bangladeshi elites’ belief in the moral superiority of Europeans.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#107

Post by selimthegrim »

rayiner wrote: post #106
selimthegrim wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The secularism as class marker bit really ground my gears.

In both america and Bangladesh, moreso in the latter, secularism is a structured form of elite oppression against the masses. In America it reflects the American elites’ belief in the moral superiority of the French, while in Bangladesh it reflects the Bangladeshi elites’ belief in the moral superiority of Europeans.

My family is Ahmedi, (not a community historically disposed to the moral superiority of Europeans or Christians and not an upper class family either) so secularism was and is a way of making sure the masses don’t turn us into mincemeat (in Bangladesh too)

What I’m trying to drive at is that this ignores indigenous leftist as well as minority (historically Ahmedis were never leftist with exception of 1970) movements.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#108

Post by selimthegrim »

rayiner wrote: post #105
tptacek wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you well know, when you're wading into volatile arguments here --- and the racial dynamics of elections are obviously that, for multiple reasons! --- the onus is on you, the commenter, to prevent spontaneous conflagration by writing carefully and hedging away the most noxious interpretations of what you're writing. You share responsibility for how your writing is interpreted. You've long since given up on that, wh…

OP isn’t overreading my point, he’s disagreeing on the merits. Correcting the misconception about Garcia’s race, I don’t see how anyone could disagree that NYC has quite bitter racial politics, and that’s long been true. The crux of our disagreement seems to boil down to him wanting to avoid the implication that New York’s racial politics is a bad thing for the city’s governance, and me not caring about doing so. Tha…

This is like when Ted Cruz goes around and corrects voters about the genuineness of Beto’s nickname despite being worse at Spanish.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#109

Post by decafninja »

kouru225 wrote: post #54
Retric wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends greatly on the suburb, many are subsidized but it’s a long way from all.

I don't think the 1% that pay their share are very relevant. The only example I know of a suburb that pays its fair share is the beach front suburb near Charleston, SC and that's very wealthy area that we couldn't expect to replicate on a widescale.

I think the relationship is more complicated.

Otherwise, why are city mayors desperately opposing WFH, with the goal of putting suburban commuters back into their hellish commutes into the city to patronize urban businesses?

You could argue the suburbanites need their urban jobs - but WFH has proven at least many of these jobs do not necessarily require workers to have their butts planted in urban offices to be productive.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#110

Post by rayiner »

selimthegrim wrote: post #107
rayiner wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both america and Bangladesh, moreso in the latter, secularism is a structured form of elite oppression against the masses. In America it reflects the American elites’ belief in the moral superiority of the French, while in Bangladesh it reflects the Bangladeshi elites’ belief in the moral superiority of Europeans.

My family is Ahmedi, (not a community historically disposed to the moral superiority of Europeans or Christians and not an upper class family either) so secularism was and is a way of making sure the masses don’t turn us into mincemeat (in Bangladesh too) What I’m trying to drive at is that this ignores indigenous leftist as well as minority (historically Ahmedis were never leftist with exception of 1970) movements.

It does, insofar as religious minorities have very little influence on Bangladeshi political dynamics. The overriding force for secularism in the country is the notion that Islam is for poor and backward people. Similarly in the US, religion is what actually poorer racial minorities have in common with the dominant group. Secularism actually arose in the US in response to poor Catholic immigrants.
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