Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

pcgamer.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 544 posts

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#241

Post by ghusbands »

Findecanor wrote: post #214
aranchelk wrote: post #164

My take on USB-A: aside from audio connectors that have axial symmetry (and have no meaningful orientation), I never used any reversible computer cables prior to USB-C, and that’s not the main issue. Nor is it the axis of symmetry of the casing allowing failed upside down plugin attempts. The shitty part of USB-A is that the tactile feedback of being slightly misaligned is identical to it being upside down. My experi…

I fail to understand what you mean with plugging a mini-DIN plug "off-center". Please explain! I find it easy to use by feel alone. You can feel when the sleeve fits the socket. Then you can rotate it in the socket until it can go all the way in.

Given the number of bent pins I've seen on mini-DIN connectors, I think people don't find it as easy as you do.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#242

Post by runlevel1 »

_moof wrote: post #26
SeanLuke wrote: post #21

> It was in 1998 that USB made some real headway, courtesy of the iMac G3, the first computer to ship with only USB ports for external devices (there were no serial or parallel ports). Um, no? The iMac had an Ethernet port, a phone jack for an internal modem, and TWO FIREWIRE PORTS. And Microphone and Speaker jacks.

The first iMac was USB only. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G3#Specifications

The Original Bondi Blue 233 MHz iMac Rev A (tray-loading CD-ROM) had:

- 2x USB

- 1x 10/100 Ethernet

- 1x phone jack

- Infrared port

- 1x audio input

- 1x audio output†

- 2x headphone ports

†I thought it had two front headphone ports so that two students could share a computer in school labs, but googling for that suggests it was probably a later revision feature.

EDIT: It did indeed have 2 headphone ports on the front: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G3#/media/File:IMac_G3_Bo...

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#243

Post by fireflash38 »

lxgr wrote: post #179
aranchelk wrote: post #164

My take on USB-A: aside from audio connectors that have axial symmetry (and have no meaningful orientation), I never used any reversible computer cables prior to USB-C, and that’s not the main issue. Nor is it the axis of symmetry of the casing allowing failed upside down plugin attempts. The shitty part of USB-A is that the tactile feedback of being slightly misaligned is identical to it being upside down. My experi…

> trying in vain to reach behind a heavy computer and unscrew the two jammed retaining bolts holding in a serial, parallel, scsi, vga, or DVI plug with slippery bent plastic jacketed heads Oh yes, that brings back very bad memories. Only gradually did it dawn on me that nothing really bad actually happens if I didn't screw the connectors tight on DVI/VGA etc. :) (Yes, these are technically not plug-and-play, but the…

It's like VGA cables came with loctite pregooped on with how hard they were to unscrew.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#244

Post by quickthrower2 »

omgJustTest wrote: post #229

I think people underestimate how cheaply products are made. > Making USB reversible to begin with would have necessitated twice as many wires and twice as many circuits, and would have doubled the cost. Adding more wires, even if it is a few is not the cheapest one and therefore not the one that wins. The relative convenience of a feature is always trumped in early days by cost-to-produce. USB-C recently introducing…

Also, coming from serial/parallel ports, people are not going to moan that the USB is not reversible.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#245

Post by ZekeSulastin »

School-Cotton wrote: post #225
lesuorac wrote: post #13

I know everybody is still on the high from USB-C but I'm still going to go on the record it will be one of the biggest disasters in cable history. 1) There's going to be video-only cables; low-voltage only cables; etc and this time everything is usb-c so you can literally only tell which ables work by testing all of the dozen cables instead of the 1-2 USB-As you have. 2) The connector is symmetrical but the pins aren…

Yes and even worse, now EU bureaucrats have mandated that Apple give up their resistance and support this inferior connector.

Apple is one of the companies that helped design USB-C and have been using it for everything except iPhones and AirPods for years now.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#246

Post by dist-epoch »

jmbwell wrote: post #83
lesuorac wrote: post #13

I know everybody is still on the high from USB-C but I'm still going to go on the record it will be one of the biggest disasters in cable history. 1) There's going to be video-only cables; low-voltage only cables; etc and this time everything is usb-c so you can literally only tell which ables work by testing all of the dozen cables instead of the 1-2 USB-As you have. 2) The connector is symmetrical but the pins aren…

3) The most fragile part (the wafer in the center of the receptacle) is on the expensive-to-repair device, while the least fragile part is on the cheap-to-replace cable. HDMI makes this same mistake. With USB-A, at least the plastic part on the device is relatively robust, and with Lightning, both plug and socket were rather robust (albeit prone to debris incursion). With older pin-type connectors like VGA and DVI, t…

It was a specific design goal of USB-C to put the fragile part on the cable, not on the device.

For people who are not versed in mechanical connector design it might look like the fragile part is that center wafer.

USB-A is massive compared to USB-C, that's why it's so robust, thick plastic, thick metal, wide connector lanes.

If USB-C is fragile, is just because it's so small, you can easily break it with not so much pressure.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#247

Post by JoblessWonder »

dylan604 wrote: post #207
snakeyjake wrote: post #140

> Making USB reversible to begin with would have necessitated twice as many wires and twice as many circuits, and would have doubled the cost. This is... not correct. You can make USB reversible with 1 extra pin and 1 extra wire. Grounds on pins 1 and 5, data on pins 2 and 4, and VCC on pin 3. Then have those pins on both sides of the plug and a socket with a single set of contacts on one side. That's BASICALLY what…

>edit: Gah! you don't even have to do that just flip the flipping wires) Isn't that essentially what all ethernet cables do? it's not like this something never done before.

When was Auto MDI-X introduced? A quick google failed to get me an answer but I remember USB being available while I still needed a crossover cable to hook up 2 switches.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#248

Post by Findecanor »

pseudosavant wrote: post #234

I think people really need to think about USB Type A in the context of the connectors it was 'competing' with: DSUB9 (VGA), RS-232 (serial), DB-25 (parallel), PS/2 (keyboard/mouse). These were, by modern standards, complete garbage connectors. Huge. Didn't stay plugged in securely unless the connector had screws. Only went one way. USB 1 stayed plugged in, required no screws, had higher bandwidth than any data port y…

Also, those older plugs were more or less not hot-pluggable. The computer had to be off (really off, not standby) before you plugged/unplugged a cable, or you'd risk damaging the port and/or the device.

The only exception I know of is that Apple Desktop Bus (mini-DIN) had been designed (by Woz !) to be supposed to be hot-pluggable but Apple cheaped out on overcurrent protection so it never was.

Edit: I forgot: in a MIDI connection there is an opto-coupler behind the receiving end, to electrically separate devices.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#249

Post by scarface_74 »

addicted wrote: post #35
lesuorac wrote: post #13

I know everybody is still on the high from USB-C but I'm still going to go on the record it will be one of the biggest disasters in cable history. 1) There's going to be video-only cables; low-voltage only cables; etc and this time everything is usb-c so you can literally only tell which ables work by testing all of the dozen cables instead of the 1-2 USB-As you have. 2) The connector is symmetrical but the pins aren…

Maybe it’s news to iPhone people (and I say this as someone whose only used iPhones since he got a smartphone over a decade ago other than for 6 months where I used a Windows phone and 3 months of an Android phone), USB-C wasn’t invented with the iPhone 15. It’s been around a long time and most people have managed just fine, and absolutely loved the common cable. And everyone hated the iPhone user because you had to…

Grab a random USB C cable. Now answer a few questions.

1. What speed does the cable support?

2. How much data does the cable support?

3. Can it support video over USB-C?

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#250

Post by kybernetikos »

snakeyjake wrote: post #140

> Making USB reversible to begin with would have necessitated twice as many wires and twice as many circuits, and would have doubled the cost. This is... not correct. You can make USB reversible with 1 extra pin and 1 extra wire. Grounds on pins 1 and 5, data on pins 2 and 4, and VCC on pin 3. Then have those pins on both sides of the plug and a socket with a single set of contacts on one side. That's BASICALLY what…

Couldn't original USB have used TRRS? That's better than reversible - an infinite number of orientations are allowed.
Post reply on HN