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Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

politico.com

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Re: Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

#121

Post by jkubicek »

beachy wrote: post #93
hammock wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still didn't explain the risks too clearly. Let's grant that TikTok is under direct CCP control, and specifically targets kids. Targets them for what? Mind control?

> Targets them for what? Mind control? Attempts to change/form their views to be favourable towards dictatorships and antagonistic to democracies.

In the same way Shell targets[1] the youth and attempts to change/form their views to be favorable to fossil fuels.

I still don't understand how TikTok is doing anything worse than what any other popular American-based social platform is already doing today. If we're going to legislate TikTok, we should also target Facebook, Fortnite, Twitter, etc. equally.

1: https://www.techspot.com/news/100426-shell-using-fortnite-so...

Re: Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

#122

Post by edmundsauto »

wolverine876 wrote: post #112
RyEgswuCsn wrote: post #104

I don't think it is just about TikTok being capable of spying on foreign users; my opinion is that it is more about TikTok's propaganda potential, i.e. how it can be used to manipulate narratives in the most subtle way against U.S.'s national interest. Imagine the case where the U.S. government would like the (western) world to form certain sentiments on the current regional conflicts that are aligned with its own in…

Propaganda is widely used on social media. Why focus on TikTok? Other countries have laws and agencies to protect against propaganda; the US doesn't bother. I doubt the propaganda concern is driving political will.

In the US, it is because other platforms share data more freely with the government than required by law. Presumably, TikTok follows the law but no more.

Re: Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

#123

Post by RyEgswuCsn »

wolverine876 wrote: post #112
RyEgswuCsn wrote: post #104

I don't think it is just about TikTok being capable of spying on foreign users; my opinion is that it is more about TikTok's propaganda potential, i.e. how it can be used to manipulate narratives in the most subtle way against U.S.'s national interest. Imagine the case where the U.S. government would like the (western) world to form certain sentiments on the current regional conflicts that are aligned with its own in…

Propaganda is widely used on social media. Why focus on TikTok? Other countries have laws and agencies to protect against propaganda; the US doesn't bother. I doubt the propaganda concern is driving political will.

> Propaganda is widely used on social media. Why focus on TikTok?

Because TikTok is a "rogue" social media (from the U.S.'s perspective, of course)?

> Other countries have laws and agencies to protect against propaganda; the US doesn't bother.

I am not sure I follow your point here; could you elaborate?

Re: Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

#124

Post by cjbgkagh »

colordrops wrote: post #98
cjbgkagh wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a weird duality with import taxes acting as a middle ground. It seems the belief that a conflict with China is inevitable is becoming more pervasive. So much of the US economy relies on reselling Chinese goods that to stop trading completely would be calamitous. I think the idea is to keep trading right up until the war starts. I’ve already stocked up on goods and materials that are only available from China as…

Which goods in particular are you stocking up on?

I do small scale manufacturing as a hobby which covers quite a gamut of fields from woodworking, machining, electronics, chemistry etc. So a huge amount of tools and industrial consumables. A lot of electronics modules. Basically anything I think I might need I buy and store. My plan for war breaking out is to stay home and do engineering work.

Re: Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

#125

Post by wolverine876 »

RyEgswuCsn wrote: post #123
wolverine876 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Propaganda is widely used on social media. Why focus on TikTok? Other countries have laws and agencies to protect against propaganda; the US doesn't bother. I doubt the propaganda concern is driving political will.

> Propaganda is widely used on social media. Why focus on TikTok? Because TikTok is a "rogue" social media (from the U.S.'s perspective, of course)? > Other countries have laws and agencies to protect against propaganda; the US doesn't bother. I am not sure I follow your point here; could you elaborate?

>> Other countries have laws and agencies to protect against propaganda; the US doesn't bother.

> I am not sure I follow your point here; could you elaborate?

My point is, the US government doesn't otherwise care much about propaganda, so I doubt that's a motivation here.

Re: Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

#126

Post by bassrattle »

solardev wrote: post #120
ok_dad wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like something out of 1984 to me. “We better ban all the news sources that aren’t approved by the state!” That’s going to push the USA into becoming a totalitarian state. I’m against that, I prefer free access to information with all the warts that come with that as well. I don’t want to be tools what the state approved facts are, because that can be warped in the future when China isn’t a threat or another po…

I'm not sure that the 1A can scale properly for modernity, though. It was written two hundred years ago by men in a different world, without broadcast propaganda that can reach billions in seconds, dark money financing every major politician, a corrupt Supreme Court, and capitalists able to freely convert billions into political speech. Put it all together and what you have isn't a vibrant democracy with a bunch of d…

> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble to petition the governement for a redress of grievances

The founding fathers were documented as being MUCH more forward-thinking than most people assume. The thought bubbles you mention and mass-manipulation existed hundreds of years ago. "Capital compels thought" isn't new and the only saving grace is the anyone can voice anything they desire and we don't need any license to participate in the marketplace of ideas.

Re: Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

#127

Post by RyEgswuCsn »

solardev wrote: post #120
ok_dad wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like something out of 1984 to me. “We better ban all the news sources that aren’t approved by the state!” That’s going to push the USA into becoming a totalitarian state. I’m against that, I prefer free access to information with all the warts that come with that as well. I don’t want to be tools what the state approved facts are, because that can be warped in the future when China isn’t a threat or another po…

I'm not sure that the 1A can scale properly for modernity, though. It was written two hundred years ago by men in a different world, without broadcast propaganda that can reach billions in seconds, dark money financing every major politician, a corrupt Supreme Court, and capitalists able to freely convert billions into political speech. Put it all together and what you have isn't a vibrant democracy with a bunch of d…

> I'm not sure that the 1A can scale properly for modernity, though.

I agree. I think the modern-day challenge is not that one cannot speak freely, but that their voice cannot compete with institution-sponsored propaganda machines --- after all, humans have limited attention. The situation is arguably worse because it suppresses free speech without being appear to suppress it.

Re: Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

#128

Post by janalsncm »

usernomdeguerre wrote: post #62
joenot443 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very, very straightforward answer is that Facebook is accountable to the US govt in ways that TikTok is not. It's entirely reasonable for the US to legislate accordingly.

More than that, a US company has an innate floor on 'how bad' they're willing to disrupt the US to get what they want, because they live and operate there. A foreign national company has no such floor if they are not our allies.

I don’t think this argument holds any water. After Cambridge Analytica, basically the worst thing any social media has done to the US, I didn’t hear anyone calling for Facebook to be banned.

Re: Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

#129

Post by paganel »

calibas wrote: post #113

The problem with the RESTRICT act isn't that it punishes China or bans TikTok, the problem is the harsh penalties (up to $1 million USD and 20 years in prison) for US citizens who try to bypass government censorship. Even calling it the "TikTok ban" is rather misleading.

> (up to $1 million USD and 20 years in prison)

Is that really on the table? If yes, then it's bat-s*it insane, it's maybe rude to call it that but there's no better word to describe it.

To put it in perspective, throughout the '80s people were not getting sent to 20 years in prison for listening to Radio Free Europe here in Eastern Europe. There were still some political prisoners left, put in prison under different pretexts, but they had not gotten in there only for listening to Radio Free Europe.

Re: Lawmakers shift gears on TikTok ban

#130

Post by lilyball »

RyEgswuCsn wrote: post #104

I don't think it is just about TikTok being capable of spying on foreign users; my opinion is that it is more about TikTok's propaganda potential, i.e. how it can be used to manipulate narratives in the most subtle way against U.S.'s national interest. Imagine the case where the U.S. government would like the (western) world to form certain sentiments on the current regional conflicts that are aligned with its own in…

This argument always strikes me as weird given that we know domestic social networks are doing precisely this, adjusting their algorithms to promote or suppress things for political reasons, but I have yet to see any claim that TikTok has ever done this, only that they could.
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