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Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

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Re: Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

#241

Post by ianleighton »

bpye wrote: post #88

I love night trains. I’ve taken them from Warsaw to Prague, Prague to Zurich, and Verona to Paris. It’s by far my preferred option - you get a decent nights sleep and whilst the tickets are more expensive it’s one fewer nights in a hotel which normally offsets it. I still really want to do the two in the UK, the Caledonian Sleeper and the Night Riviera.

Took Lisbon to Donostia-San Sebastián before Renfe canceled it in 2020. Basic hostel-like sleeping experience, but really nice and something that should exist.

Would love to take these more often if there were more (any) west to central Europe connections! (perfect routes for it too, since the flights are long and the infrastructure is less high speed)

A car+sleep train would be amazing to bring back, too.

Re: Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

#242

Post by explaininjs »

geysersam wrote: post #169
explaininjs wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh… that’s an invitation for lobbyists and politicians to buggar the whole thing up for every self-serving interest imaginable. The simpler the better.

Flat rate just won't work, ever, it's a doomed idea. We need political decision about what kind of emissions are acceptable and what kinds are not. No way basic necessities, food, transportation should be taxed the same rate as luxury houses and yachts/private jets. It's not realistic.

Why not? If it’s truly about the environment then everyone should pay based on their environmental impact. Sure, if carbon/methane/whatever can be shown to have a higher environmental impact when emitted at altitude or whatever, take that into account.

But placing the environment second to specifically target the “luxury” as some sort of way to “get” the rich is only harming your case.

Re: Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

#243

Post by boffinAudio »

ornornor wrote: post #50

ÖBB night trains vary greatly in quality. I had the displeasure of taking the Zürich Budapest night train and back. It was absolutely terrible. Broken cars from the 90s, beds so short you can’t fully lie in them, defective toilets, blinds that don’t close, rattling doors all night, arrived 4h late… not something I’d do again.

I once found myself in the situation of needing an overnight train from Zagreb to Vienna .. the attendant at the Zagreb central train station had no idea how to book the ticket, had to dig out an ancient aging PC out from under some desk detritus to look things up, had a completely useless time of it .. I just gave up and rented a car.

Man, that was a nice drive - as much as I love the trains of Europe (they are awesome) the adventurous drives to be had in that region (Zagreb->Vienna) are also bloody awesome. Had a 2 hour drive to the border crossing, I thought was going to be smooth - only to be turned back because it was for EU citizens only .. but the adventure alone was worth it.

Re: Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

#244

Post by gpvos »

asdff wrote: post #183
gpvos wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a plane, you may have to get up extra early, or still lose half a day. Especially in Central/Eastern Europe, the prices aren't that high really. And, as GP already wrote, you save on one night in a hotel, which may offset the entire difference. Also, there is the environment. If that were factored in properly in the prices (and that's being worked on), the train would be a lot cheaper.

I don't think you can really consider the environment here as there are too many variables to consider in a reliable model. E.g. its not clear that replacing that entire planes worth of peoples trips with another routing would even net a gain, if people might have to do more circuitous routing that take more time and distance, or take different modes of transit that aren't a fully electrified rail that goes end to en…

I understand that some comparisons with realistic assumptions have been made. Notably, high-speed trains cause significantly more emissions than classical trains, but are still better than planes.

Re: Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

#245

Post by rollcat »

peepeepoopoo44 wrote: post #173
rollcat wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of flying is externalized on the environment; time can vary depending on actual distance, after you consider getting to/from the airport, or the last 100km to your destination. I think the two options are fairly competitive with one another.

The cost of trains are externalized on the taxpayer. If air travel received the same level of subsidies as rail, it would be essentially free of charge.

I'd rather pay the taxes this year, than have us continue digging ourselves into our environmental debt hole. Money is fungible, climate change isn't.

Re: Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

#246

Post by midasuni »

Nextgrid wrote: post #201
midasuni wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is how shoplifting works. Except the police will never catch you.

But when they do catch you it generally results in consequences beyond giving the stolen goods back. TLDR: don’t shoplift, instead make a company and defraud consumers. It’s more profitable and less risky at the same time!

Majority of shoplifters that are caught (a tiny number) have nothing more than maybe giving the goods back.

Same with bike thefts.

Re: Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

#247

Post by nologic01 »

jryle70 wrote: post #223
nologic01 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air travel is cheaper in part because it is subsidized [1]. Nothing wrong with optimizing for cost - if all externalities are properly priced. Otherwise its just egotistical behavior (don't mess with my habits) that passes as "common sense". [1] https://www.transportenvironment.org/challenges/planes/subsi...

Train is also subsidized. In fact, while air transport benefits from tax exemption, train receives substantial infrastructure subsidy. The following report puts rail subsidy to be around 75B EUR, whereas air within 27B to 35B. The study is from 2007, but I doubt it has changed much. https://www.eea.europa.eu/publications/technical_report_2007...

Very informative report. But as per its conclusion: "subsidies could be justified to balance the existence of external costs of competing modes, e.g. when an internalisation of the externality, for whatever reason, encounters strong political opposition from vested interests. This applies to some of the subsidies for public transport, especially rail, since its competing modes, particularly road and air, have significantly higher external costs".

In other words, it makes sense to subsidize rail, it doesn't make sense to subsidize modes with higher externalities.

Re: Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

#248

Post by Zetobal »

mschuster91 wrote: post #200
Closi wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This implies that rail is running at capacity during the night, which I suspect isn’t true. It’s not a choice between 1 car-train or 1 normal night train - you can have both if there is line capacity. And you probably aren’t running sleeper carriages during peak hours.

> This implies that rail is running at capacity during the night, which I suspect isn’t true. cry-laughs in German Oh hell yes we do run at nominal capacity, actually often enough above. The transit routes are fully booked all times of the year, the demand for freight transit is insane, and every bordering country is complaining that we can't get our shit together (to no one's surprise after 30 years of perpetual bud…

That's like a lot of half knowledge someone would get by just listening to the media and anecdotal evidence. The net is not at capacity especially not at night. The freight trains that run at night have peak network capacity of only 30% even on high traffic routes like Hamburg - Berlin. There are close to no passenger cars running at night. At least inform yourself before writing a comment in the tonal voice you did.

Re: Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

#249

Post by ddejohn »

beebeepka wrote: post #232
ddejohn wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So instead of taking the opportunity to educate somebody on a topic you're implying you know a lot about, you've decided it's not worth the bother because I'm probably religious about -- checks notes -- carbon taxes... and there's going to be no reasoning with me? Why bother commenting on the internet at all?

So, instead of arguing your own thoughts on the matter, you choose to downvote when I share my own. Or, you could just do the usual citations spam to silence any dissenting opinions. Why bother indeed.

I don't have 500 rep. I'm unable to downvote. I tried to engage in discourse by asking you to elaborate on your position -- the onus wasn't on me to explain anything. Good luck in life.

Re: Austria rail operator OeBB unveils new night trains

#250

Post by beebeepka »

ddejohn wrote: post #249
beebeepka wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, instead of arguing your own thoughts on the matter, you choose to downvote when I share my own. Or, you could just do the usual citations spam to silence any dissenting opinions. Why bother indeed.

I don't have 500 rep. I'm unable to downvote. I tried to engage in discourse by asking you to elaborate on your position -- the onus wasn't on me to explain anything. Good luck in life.

I did explain but apparently my reasoning wasn't good enough. It's hard to take someone seriously when they are in favour of scams like carbon tax, considering the premise of carbon offsets. It's akin to paying someone to take the punishment for a crime you did.

Take care.

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