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The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

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Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#21

Post by ghaff »

Spooky23 wrote: post #14
School-Cotton wrote: post #2

I don’t think anyone needs reminding. Anyone who lives in NYC implicitly understands that we’re stuck with approximately the subway system we have now, forever.

Oh no, it will get far worse. The congestion tolls are both going to send tourists and business fleeing. Manhattan will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there until things start failing.

>will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there

Which is the attitude that a lot of people who live in larger cities have. "I don't want people driving or otherwise coming into my city." But most cities aren't sustainable on that basis.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#22

Post by downrightmike »

School-Cotton wrote: post #2

I don’t think anyone needs reminding. Anyone who lives in NYC implicitly understands that we’re stuck with approximately the subway system we have now, forever.

Yall are going to need some elevated trains as building underground is just insane.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#23

Post by afavour »

cyberax wrote: post #20

That's the fate of all large cities: infrastructure gets more and more complicated, and bureaucracy always keeps growing. The way to fix it is to stop building large dense cities. We need tax incentives for companies to create jobs in sparsely-populated regions and for remote jobs. Also probably something like cap-and-trade for dense office space. This way, eventually we won't need Downtowns with super-concentrated o…

Nope.

NYC’s problems are specific to the city. Take a look at the transit Paris has built in the last decade or so. It’s been built faster and far more cheaply than any MTA project.

Cities also appeal to people for reasons other than dense employment opportunities. Small towns are hardly free of bureaucracy. So on and so forth.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#24

Post by decafninja »

ghaff wrote: post #21
Spooky23 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no, it will get far worse. The congestion tolls are both going to send tourists and business fleeing. Manhattan will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there until things start failing.

>will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there Which is the attitude that a lot of people who live in larger cities have. "I don't want people driving or otherwise coming into my city." But most cities aren't sustainable on that basis.

Someone will inevitably reply that the suburbs are not sustainable and it’s the cities that are propping them up.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#26

Post by nerdponx »

Spooky23 wrote: post #14
School-Cotton wrote: post #2

I don’t think anyone needs reminding. Anyone who lives in NYC implicitly understands that we’re stuck with approximately the subway system we have now, forever.

Oh no, it will get far worse. The congestion tolls are both going to send tourists and business fleeing. Manhattan will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there until things start failing.

Tourists don't drive in Manhattan and businesses there don't rely on vehicle traffic. And delivery vehicles are not charged as far as I am aware in the current proposal. The people who will suffer the most are people who drive in for work and suburban families that drive in for weekend day trips. The latter can afford to pay for the privilege. The former tends to be people under-served by transit, which is unfortunate and they should probably be given a discounted weekly pass or something.

There's absolutely no reason to expect any kind of collapse in anything other than asthma rates and traffic congestion.

Funny how people who tend to proclaim that they are pro-business also tend to oppose textbook classical liberal free market solutions to textbook externality problems.

The city already is and has been a playground for the rich for 10+ years. That's largely due to real estate. Small businesses in the city are also struggling due to real estate, as well as the chaotic and difficult regulatory environment.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#27

Post by ghaff »

decafninja wrote: post #24
ghaff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there Which is the attitude that a lot of people who live in larger cities have. "I don't want people driving or otherwise coming into my city." But most cities aren't sustainable on that basis.

Someone will inevitably reply that the suburbs are not sustainable and it’s the cities that are propping them up.

Many/most of the people in suburbs/exurbs around me go into (or don't go into) suburban/exurban offices and local businesses. They rarely go into the major city 40 miles away. When I do, it's mostly to go to the airport or a play every 2-3 months.

From a tech perspective, until the West Coast companies started opening satellite offices in the city, it basically didn't have any tech companies any longer and was losing population.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#28

Post by afavour »

downrightmike wrote: post #22
School-Cotton wrote: post #2

I don’t think anyone needs reminding. Anyone who lives in NYC implicitly understands that we’re stuck with approximately the subway system we have now, forever.

Yall are going to need some elevated trains as building underground is just insane.

Ironically NYC used to have an absolute ton. In fact a number of the underground lines we have today were direct replacements for the overhead lines, which were unsightly and very noisy.

These days I have to imagine we could create something much quieter but very few people are going to advocate for their sunlight to be blocked by an overhead train line.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#29

Post by Wowfunhappy »

downrightmike wrote: post #22
School-Cotton wrote: post #2

I don’t think anyone needs reminding. Anyone who lives in NYC implicitly understands that we’re stuck with approximately the subway system we have now, forever.

Yall are going to need some elevated trains as building underground is just insane.

NYC has lots of elevated trains. And other cities around the world are able to build tunnels more cheaply than NYC, there's nothing insane about it.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#30

Post by afavour »

Spooky23 wrote: post #14
School-Cotton wrote: post #2

I don’t think anyone needs reminding. Anyone who lives in NYC implicitly understands that we’re stuck with approximately the subway system we have now, forever.

Oh no, it will get far worse. The congestion tolls are both going to send tourists and business fleeing. Manhattan will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there until things start failing.

I’m sorry, which tourists are going to be turned off by congestion tolls? Tourists are, by and large, not driving in and out of lower Manhattan. Same with businesses, only a very small number have a significant number of customers drive to visit them.
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