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The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

pedestrianobservations.com

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Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#11

Post by jmyeet »

I've never seen an adequate explanation for why the 5 miles of the Second Avenue Subway cost $19 billion. I've seen blame placed on the cost of stations, 3 in particular. But these collectively amount to less than $2 billion.

By comparison, Crossrail in the UK cost a similar amount with a truly massive amount of new track, new tunnels and new stations. London is a reasonable comparison to NYC. London may even be worse given the age of the cities and the whole thing being full of ruins going back to Roman Britain.

This article mentions layers of consultants. Honestly, I think we'd be better off if the government was never allowed to spend another dollar on McKinsey, Bain, BCG, etc. They're just an exercise in wealth extraction from the government, providing negative value.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#12

Post by lotsofpulp »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #8
jseliger wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voters don't seem to vote in ways that are consistent with improving subway building functionality.

Which way would that be?

One priority would have to be getting the NY state government out of the city’s public transportation organizations. Right now, everything is subject to state politics because the state controls the MTA.

Another would be making motorized individual methods of transit more and more painful and expanding bicycle/pedestrian infrastructure (this is often two birds with one stone). This will get the public to support politicians that make public transportation the priority.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#13

Post by mandevil »

jseliger wrote: post #4
School-Cotton wrote: post #2

I don’t think anyone needs reminding. Anyone who lives in NYC implicitly understands that we’re stuck with approximately the subway system we have now, forever.

Voters don't seem to vote in ways that are consistent with improving subway building functionality.

The problem is that NYC doesn't control the MTA: it was taken under state control back in 1968. And the governor has too many other issues on his/her plate to care enough to give the agency the top-to-bottom revamp it desperately needs. No one gets elected governor of the whole state of NY by campaigning on 'I'll fix NYC's subways' as a message, and indeed some of the more recent governors (Pataki, A. Cuomo) seemed to delight in stomping all over the mayor of NYC and use that for political gain.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#14

Post by Spooky23 »

School-Cotton wrote: post #2

I don’t think anyone needs reminding. Anyone who lives in NYC implicitly understands that we’re stuck with approximately the subway system we have now, forever.

Oh no, it will get far worse.

The congestion tolls are both going to send tourists and business fleeing. Manhattan will be a beautiful playground for the people who live there until things start failing.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#15

Post by steveBK123 »

bushbaba wrote: post #7
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #6

This report is basically just advance warning for people who live in NYC to start planning to not have it around. You don't put stuff like this into a final public report unless you think it's the most likely outcome. We know for a fact the US has neither the leadership, funding mechanism nor the incentive structures to actually build for BEYOND those 20 years anyway, so even if they were able to shore things up for…

We care about the environment, human life, and workers rights. That comes at substantially greater cost to build.

Many other advanced, rich, highly unionized countries.. like say, France.. are able to build subways at 1/10th the per-mile cost of NYC. So its far more than that.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#16

Post by bobthepanda »

throw7 wrote: post #5
School-Cotton wrote: post #2

I don’t think anyone needs reminding. Anyone who lives in NYC implicitly understands that we’re stuck with approximately the subway system we have now, forever.

Is that why byford failed? Meaning that do you know that byford did not recognize what "anyone needs reminding" knew that nyc "can't build" is the problem?

Byford recognized it, and then his boss proceeded to undermine him so he left.

He wasn’t there long enough to effect the solution to decades of poor investment and managing.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#17

Post by Spooky23 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #12
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which way would that be?

One priority would have to be getting the NY state government out of the city’s public transportation organizations. Right now, everything is subject to state politics because the state controls the MTA. Another would be making motorized individual methods of transit more and more painful and expanding bicycle/pedestrian infrastructure (this is often two birds with one stone). This will get the public to support poli…

That’s not a policy priority or choice - NYC bankrupted mass transit decades ago and the bailout consisted of a grand merger between the bridge tolls and transit. The current situation is a result.

It’s a public authority secured by bonds. Unless the feds decide to pump billions of dollars into NYS/NYC, nothing happens unless the organization is insolvent again.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#18

Post by bobthepanda »

jmyeet wrote: post #11

I've never seen an adequate explanation for why the 5 miles of the Second Avenue Subway cost $19 billion. I've seen blame placed on the cost of stations, 3 in particular. But these collectively amount to less than $2 billion. By comparison, Crossrail in the UK cost a similar amount with a truly massive amount of new track, new tunnels and new stations. London is a reasonable comparison to NYC. London may even be wors…

They did not cost $19B. That projection was the 2007 cost for building it from Harlem to the tip of Downtown.

Phase I ended up costing around $4.4B.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#19

Post by singhrac »

jmyeet wrote: post #11

I've never seen an adequate explanation for why the 5 miles of the Second Avenue Subway cost $19 billion. I've seen blame placed on the cost of stations, 3 in particular. But these collectively amount to less than $2 billion. By comparison, Crossrail in the UK cost a similar amount with a truly massive amount of new track, new tunnels and new stations. London is a reasonable comparison to NYC. London may even be wors…

The linked blog is written by a transit expert who writes extensively on costs, including this report: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2022/10/24/the-transit-co.... I'm not an expert, though, so if you read that and found it to be inadequate/incorrect, I'd be curious to hear why.

Re: The NYC's MTA 20 year needs assessment reminds us they can't build

#20

Post by cyberax »

That's the fate of all large cities: infrastructure gets more and more complicated, and bureaucracy always keeps growing.

The way to fix it is to stop building large dense cities. We need tax incentives for companies to create jobs in sparsely-populated regions and for remote jobs. Also probably something like cap-and-trade for dense office space.

This way, eventually we won't need Downtowns with super-concentrated offices.

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