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Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

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151–160 of 175 posts

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cart before the horse. There is no guarantee that you can even "single spend" crypto. Prove me wrong by paying next month's rent with it. Let me know how it goes.

I do pay my rent in crypto

Do you have a guarantee that you'll be able to next month?

How about if you want/need to move and get a new landlord?

The point being that no landlord or merchant or individual has any legal obligation to accept crypto as "money" and can refuse any time they want.

For all intents and purposes, crypto is monopoly money backed by greed and delusional thinking.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#152

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> How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. This is astonishing mental gymnastics. Take the average crypto investor and ask them how the blockchain works. Not marketing fluff: the actual steps in pseudo-code for literally any step of the process. "The code is all there bro" is an astonishing amount of ba…

Someone not understanding what they're buying when the information is all publicly available doesn't make it a scam. Again, a scam implies someone being "misled". If you buy some ecstasy and its laced with fentanyl, you were scammed (to say the least). If you buy ecstasy and you get ecstasy, you were not scammed as you got exactly what you asked for. > The system has demonstrated multiple times that all the "ownershi…

> Someone not understanding what they're buying when the information is all publicly available doesn't make it a scam.

Literally the entire basis of free market ideology is the notion that buyers and sellers operate on an equal footing and a presumption of good faith can be assumed, or at least, that's how it's been sold historically. So, so much of crypto is just outright lies. The notion that every member of a project, for instance, can all walk away rich is at face value a lie: because crypto cannot create wealth, merely move it, the people who cash out big on top can only do that because so many others have bought in on the bottom. It's just a techy retooling of a bigger fool's scam: you can only make money on the asset you've bought by finding a buyer to buy it at a higher price later. The only way you can conceptualize these things as a store of value is to presume an infinite chain of bigger fools ready to buy it at an ever increasing price, ad infinitum. Or, if you prefer to operate in reality, there will eventually be a bag holder, someone who holds something that is now worthless and cannot sell it.

Like, for example, all the people who hold Ethereum Classic, which is probably why it's worth a tenth what Ethereum is: because the principles of this technology don't fucking matter, what matters is the traction the coin has with the investor class, and the people who are in this to make money (which is the vast, vast majority of them) are going to follow the chains that the big stakeholders go to.

> Again, a scam implies someone being "misled". If you buy some ecstasy and its laced with fentanyl, you were scammed (to say the least). If you buy ecstasy and you get ecstasy, you were not scammed as you got exactly what you asked for.

And this again is exactly the attitude I absolutely loathe in the tech space. This notion that if you aren't smart enough or knowledgeable enough to see the bad shit coming, if you, by your very basic human nature can be taken advantage of by someone who knows more, than you apparently deserve to be. Buyer beware.

That attitude sucks ass. If the crypto guys were really about changing the world for the better, they would be building a financial system that is, yes, detached from the current, highly biased and corrupting one that is rife with problems, and on-boarding people with education. With understanding of the underlying tech, imparting knowledge about the failings and foibles of the systems they're replacing, and showing a new, better version, decoupled from the corrupting influences of governments they claim render fiat unusable. That's NOT what they've done here. They have not built a replacement financial system, they built a near exact copy of the current one, minus all manner of consumer protections, any insurance of value, with a singular goal: to recreate the structural inequities of the old system, with them on top. That's fucking it. That is the entire difference between fiat and crypto.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying It's scam in that you're being enticed to mislead yourself. You're ignoring the obvious difference between "legal tender" and electrons. Most children understand that "monopoly money" isn't real "legal tender" --- but you don't? Those running the crypto "marketplace" don't suffer from these sort of delusions.

> It's scam in that you're being enticed to mislead yourself. That doesn't even make sense. > Most children understand that "monopoly money" isn't real "legal tender" --- but you don't? No one is claiming that cryptocurrencies are legal tender (outside of countries like El Salvador that made it so)

That doesn't even make sense.

Neither does surrendering "legal tender" for money that is not.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#154
post #142
post #132

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Yeah, you don't even have the right units on that metric, Bitcoin fees are not per transaction. They are not scaled by the amount of Bitcoin you are transacting either. It's a per byte fee. Different transactions take up more or less space on the blockchain depending on how many addresses are involved. Here's a good explanation: https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin/fees/

Yes? And you can still get an average fee per transaction to get a rough idea of how expensive it is.

I suppose, but it's just not a very useful number. If you are sending a billion dollars of Bitcoin from one address to another, the transaction fee could be one dollar. No bank in this universe will do that amount for that cheap (and the settlement time would be way more than Bitcoin's 10 minutes).

The overall point I'm trying to make is it's hard to compare Bitcoin to our current banking system if you don't really even understand how Bitcoin works

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#155

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Avon, Amway, Vector, Mary Kay, etc have been fleecing suckers WAY longer than Bitcoin has existed. I don’t know where they your “MLM’s go to zero” idea is coming from. Sure, many MLMs go to zero. But so do many cryptocurrencies.

Avon et al are the people at the top of the pyramid. They don't go out of business, they keep running the scam until they get arrested or run out of suckers. And P.T. Barnum said something about the latter. It's the suckers whose "investment" in one of these things goes to zero, which happens all the time. There are cryptocurrencies that go to zero, but there are also government currencies that go to zero. They go to…

Ah, I misunderstood. Touché, that is a fair distinction. It's hard to know how widespread leverage is used in crypto investments. One of the scary things about cryptocurrency investments is the lack of regulation, letting unsophisticated "investors" easily take on ludicrous amounts of risk. It's not uncommon to see 100x leverage offerings at crypto exchanges [1][2][3]. If used, it obviously can result in "investment goes to zero"—or worse—situations.

[1] https://margex.com/

[2] https://app.covo.finance/

[3] https://ascendex.com/en/products/trade/futures-trading

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#156
post #154
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? And you can still get an average fee per transaction to get a rough idea of how expensive it is.

I suppose, but it's just not a very useful number. If you are sending a billion dollars of Bitcoin from one address to another, the transaction fee could be one dollar. No bank in this universe will do that amount for that cheap (and the settlement time would be way more than Bitcoin's 10 minutes). The overall point I'm trying to make is it's hard to compare Bitcoin to our current banking system if you don't really e…

Why do you assume I don't know how Bitcoin works? Because I'm not using sat/byte, which would only confuse the casual reader?

My point was that for regular payments that regular people do Bitcoin is simply too expensive for. The average transaction amount is indeed very useful to backup that statement.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#157

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You say it is inflation resistant, but after a period of massive deflation, it has seen inflation rates that would make an African dictator blush, and now it is back to deflating. Things that are inflation resistant don’t rise AND fall wildly in relation to gently inflating assets like USD. They have a pricing curve which would be completely flat when priced in real (inflation adjusted == real) dollars. Bitcoin is no…

He is talking about inflating the money supply.

[deleted]

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#158
post #65

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> no intrinsic value > electrons > entry in a database The most fascinating phenomenon of crypto arguments is that they never change. Fifteen years ago you could find these same unintentionally ironic statements, where the most cutting criticisms of cryptocurrency are equally true of dollars and euros. The only thing missing from this thread (so far) is mysticism about the money supply and confident assertions that d…

dollars are somehow "backed" by the military or tax payments. They are backed by law --- they are "legal tender". As such, I'm fairly confident I can pay next month's rent with them. Crypto is backed by --- absolutely nothing. Pretending you can't see the difference here is lying to yourself.

Seems like "backed by law" is just a synonym for the Latin "fiat", "let it be done", as in "the current regime decrees that this particular figment of our collective imagination is their preferred medium of exchange, which can, will, and always has changed throughout history to different socially constructed figments of the collective imagination".

Not to say that it's dumb or silly to align yourself with the current regime, even though we all know that it will, sooner or later, be replaced by something else. Maybe that's next year, or maybe it won't happen in my children's lifetimes.

But for me, I already have 95% of my life and wealth tightly coupled to the stability and durability of the current regime, and it doesn't seem completely mad to diversify a bit into something that might possibly have a chance of surviving a regime change, or could retain some value in the event the current regime decides to appropriate or restrict or sanction how I can spend or transfer wealth currently locked in their system.

Perhaps twenty years ago it was unimaginable that the current regime could end, or transmute into an totalitarian hellscape, or even just continue with the appearance of liberal democracy but be undermined by authoritarians.

If it's become easier to imagine scenarios like these in recent years, is it insane to want a 5% allocation to independent, uncorrelated, uncensorable assets to correspond to a 5% probability of previously unthinkable scenarios?

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#159
post #31

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It only seems to solve it in theory. However in a world of centralized mining where devs have high influence on how forks are treated, the double spend problem is still a problem. This is because what distinguishes forks can be their “validity”, not their proof-of-work, and fork validity is decided by humans and subject to politics and fraud.

Value is always decided by humans. The question is, is it decided in a distributed way via general consensus, or in a centralized way that exposes you to the whims of unaccountable bureaucrats? Bitcoin devs can do whatever they want, except that there is no law putting them in charge so if they attempt to commit fraud they lose everyone's respect which was the only thing giving them any power, and they get replaced b…

Considering the _incredible_ amount of scams and rugpulls in the crypto space, some run multiple times by the same people, that would seem incredibly optimistic.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#160
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Because if it goes to five when I need to use it for groceries, I’m in a bit of a pickle. That does not happen with the USD/Euro/whatever.

> Because if it goes to five when I need to use it for groceries, I’m in a bit of a pickle. Why? You're out $45. That sucks, but since you're not a Bitcoin speculator who holds all their assets in Bitcoin, you only have to open your phone and exchange something for another $50 worth of Bitcoin so you can use it to buy groceries. Maybe you could use the $50 you made that time your $50 in Bitcoin turned into $100 and t…

So I’m not using it for currency, then? If it’s value can range from $100 to $5, it is unusable as daily currency, and the only reason to hold it is because I’m hoping today is the day it’s $100, and if it’s not, I’m going to use my real currency to buy things.

You’ve just made speculation small scale and complicated.

And my bread costs 8% more dollars than it did a little while ago. My dollar didn’t lose 92% of its value. They’re entirely different issues. My fifty USD will still buy enough bread for the week. My fifty BTC might if I happen to want bread at the right time.

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