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Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

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Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#141

Post by AnthonyMouse »

hudon wrote: post #107
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Your bank will refund you for fraudulent charges" doesn't prevent fraud, it puts the cost of fraud insurance into the cost of banking. Which may be significantly less efficient when the user or anyone other than the bank is the lowest cost avoider for preventing fraud. They also won't refund you for fraudulent charges unless you report them quickly enough.

You've drifted off-course. We were talking about whether or not double spends are possible in Bitcoin and now you're arguing about how banks deal with fraud refunds. peace!

It prevents double spends under a set of assumptions. One of the assumptions it makes is that the Bitcoin code on your device faithfully implements the system in the paper. It doesn't claim to be the thing that causes that assumption to be valid; you have to ensure that using separate means.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#142

Post by lawn »

krupan wrote: post #132
lawn wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it too hard to comprehend what I wrote? Average fee per transaction? I have heard about this mystery thing that supposedly solves all of Bitcoins problems. Except that it's been years and it's still not ready, you still have load it up via the expensive transactions and you have to use third party services to get a somewhat useable UX. Lightning is even more of a joke than Bitcoin is.

Yeah, you don't even have the right units on that metric, Bitcoin fees are not per transaction. They are not scaled by the amount of Bitcoin you are transacting either. It's a per byte fee. Different transactions take up more or less space on the blockchain depending on how many addresses are involved. Here's a good explanation: https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin/fees/

Yes? And you can still get an average fee per transaction to get a rough idea of how expensive it is.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#144

Post by JSavageOne »

cmcaleer wrote: post #73
JSavageOne wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin uses about 100x more energy than ethereum, has 5x less throughput, and doesn't natively support smart contracts. There's definitely also room for ethereum.

There is no word for swapping $5 of crypto on Uniswap currently costing ~$2 in gas fees (and this is 'low') and taking several minutes other than "dumb". There are other cryptos which have most or all of the advantages of Ethereum with minimal downsides. I don't want to come across as shilling any particular bag, so I'll be vague and say there are chains with reasonable amounts of activity where transactions take sec…

The future is layer 2s.

Other blockchains that advertise smaller fees and faster transaction times all sacrifice on decentralization and/or security, and would not retain those advantages if their usage was at the same scale as ethereum.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#145

Post by JSavageOne »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #39
JSavageOne wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. How is cryptocurrency any more of a scam than fiat currency, ie. digits in the computer of some private bank or central bank?

> How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. This is astonishing mental gymnastics. Take the average crypto investor and ask them how the blockchain works. Not marketing fluff: the actual steps in pseudo-code for literally any step of the process. "The code is all there bro" is an astonishing amount of ba…

Someone not understanding what they're buying when the information is all publicly available doesn't make it a scam. Again, a scam implies someone being "misled". If you buy some ecstasy and its laced with fentanyl, you were scammed (to say the least). If you buy ecstasy and you get ecstasy, you were not scammed as you got exactly what you asked for.

> The system has demonstrated multiple times that all the "ownership is truly yours" rhetoric is thrown out the window

In ethereum that only happened once back in 2016 when the DAO was hacked. In any case you're free to use Ethereum Classic.

Anyways you listed some legitimate concerns of cryptocurrencies, but none of them imply that crypto is a scam. Nobody is forced to use crypto, and anyone purchasing crypto should obviously do their own research and evaluate whether it makes sense for them. Crypto has legitimate use cases (eg. for people in countries with oppressive currency regimes) and many find it work the risks.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#146

Post by JSavageOne »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #96
JSavageOne wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. How is cryptocurrency any more of a scam than fiat currency, ie. digits in the computer of some private bank or central bank?

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying It's scam in that you're being enticed to mislead yourself. You're ignoring the obvious difference between "legal tender" and electrons. Most children understand that "monopoly money" isn't real "legal tender" --- but you don't? Those running the crypto "marketplace" don't suffer from these sort of delusions.

> It's scam in that you're being enticed to mislead yourself.

That doesn't even make sense.

> Most children understand that "monopoly money" isn't real "legal tender" --- but you don't?

No one is claiming that cryptocurrencies are legal tender (outside of countries like El Salvador that made it so)

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#147

Post by JSavageOne »

kylebenzle wrote: post #50
JSavageOne wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. How is cryptocurrency any more of a scam than fiat currency, ie. digits in the computer of some private bank or central bank?

I find that people that are not smart enough to understand Bitcoin generally respond by getting mad about Bitcoin or ignoring it by calling it a scam.

It's funny because HN was initially supportive of Bitcoin when it first came out, but ever since it became popular has been vehemently against it.

It's like the reverse of that famous HN post when Dropbox was announced and the top comment was that this probably won't work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#148

Post by JSavageOne »

krupan wrote: post #97
bhaak wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is Ethereum centrally controlled that Bitcoin isn‘t?

Vitalik says, "hey, let's do this" and everyone does it. Even when it's crazy things like rolling back transactions. Satoshi doesn't even say anything and hasn't for a very long time.

Ethereum is decentralized and Vitalik has no direct authority over the protocol

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#149

Post by latchkey »

notamy wrote: post #11
ferfumarma wrote: post #5

Crypto does have utility, but there's only room for one: bitcoin. Everything else is just a me-too derivative that can add nothing except the possibility of central control (like the "digital dollar"). The ability to instantly transmit the hardest asset known to man (harder than gold, in the sense of inflation resistance) does have utility, regardless of what critics say. It has downsides too: the ability to be lost…

> People on HN are smarter than me, and they all seem to hate bitcoin with passion, but I haven't yet understood why. I think it might be harder to recognize its value when it's part of your implicit cultural background: the dollar is money. Because if BTC is going to be my money for transactions, I actively do not want any of the speculation on its price. It’s not useful for normal transactions if the price can swin…

It is possible to borrow against BTC (and many other crypto) holdings. This means you don't have to sell. Lend your BTC, earns a bit interest. Borrow your local currency at some rate and within a comfortable liquidation ratio. Spend the local currency on what you want to buy. Earn from your job. Pay back the loan. Keep thing thing you bought. Now you're putting your store of value to work for you and the daily swings in BTC price become less important. No need to go to anyone for permission to do that either. No credit checks. No banks. Anywhere in the world.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#150

Post by latchkey »

bhaak wrote: post #100
krupan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vitalik says, "hey, let's do this" and everyone does it. Even when it's crazy things like rolling back transactions. Satoshi doesn't even say anything and hasn't for a very long time.

So you don't believe in the existence of Ethereum Classic?

No. This is absolutely a zombie chain.
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