Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives • Hacker News Board

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#131

Post by kamaal » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 3:47 PM UTC

djhworld wrote: post #127

kamaal wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to me the disaster has already occurred. The only section of programmers using Java day in and out for their projects are low price substandard developers who can't write a line of code without the IDE doing autocomplete at every key stroke. Coming to Android and other Google initiative they tend to happen only because the tooling, documentation support and a large pool of programmers that exist. Java today…

I do Java in my day job and I agree, I couldn't write much Java code without an IDE, mainly because Java is a horrible language to cut code in and you do need to write a lot of boilerplate for many Java EE patterns. The IDE removes that problem somewhat. It's not that Java coders "can't write a line of code without an IDE", it's Java coders don't have the patience to write pure Java in a text editor. You're also forg…

I don't know why anybody would create a headache and then try to cure it.

Intelligent people avoid headaches.

Prevention is better than cure. And IDE is a cure, Avoid what forces you to resort to a cure. Prevent the disease itself.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#132

Post by kamaal » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 3:53 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #123

kamaal wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are only three factors Java is getting used today. 1. 'Hiring the cheap programmer' factor. 2. 'The Oracle' factor. 3. 'The pointy haired boss' factor. And those are not awesome reasons to stay alive.

Interesting. I'm actually using Java on projects, but via Groovy. Others I know are coming from Ruby in to Clojure. So, "Java" as such isn't the direct factor, but JVM is a common one. Will it be enough to keep it from COBOL-status?

JVM based languages are totally different.

I remember Bjarne Stroustrup telling Java isn't platform independent, Java is the platform. Meaning compiled C++ runs on processors directly, but compiled Java runs on JVM. So JVM becomes analogous to a processor.

So comparing JVM based languages is like comparing languages directly compiled to a processor like a ARM processor. Future of JVM is different than future of Java.

Just like future of C++ is different than future of pentium.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#133

Post by chromatic » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 5:02 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #118

chromatic wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have such and ambitious goal the time taken is worth to fulfill it. After almost twelve years of rewrite after rewrite after rewrite, it's no wonder people stop caring.

Well, more than anybody else you know it well why most of the failures happened. But for others. I can understand the obvious disappointment. But Perl 6 is designed such that without many of those failures we couldn't have figured it out earlier what it would take to build Perl 6. Perl 6 has a mutable grammar, which means it should be written in itself. And this created a huge problem, because you don't have ready to…

Perl 6 is designed such that without many of those failures we couldn't have figured it out earlier what it would take to build Perl 6.

Sure, but those don't account for the past four years of failures. What I see is a pattern of overwhelming desire to throw away code just as it's in danger of becoming useful to actual users.

Phrased from a different angle, the reason we wanted monthly releases was not because monthly releases are interesting in and of themselves, but because they could deliver regular (if incremental) improvements to actual users on a predictable schedule.

Forking Rakudo into an all-but-abandoned master branch and doing monthly releases off of that branch hews to the letter of the idea of monthly releases while violating the spirit of those releases. I understand the reasons why it happened, but that sort of decision has happened often enough in the project that it's a habit--if not culture.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#134

Post by protomyth » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #106

protomyth wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are some manager in a big company and looking at the press, there is little distinction. In fact, more stories have been posted about Python 2.x to 3.x conversions (mostly because Perl 6 is not a story). Heck, I would imagine a couple of people on HN have run into the "can't use Python 3 because it isn't compatible with anything"-meme. Carefully considered logical analysis with realistic risk mitigation gets t…

You are not getting it, Perl 6 is not designed as a successor to Perl 5 but as a Age proof Perl. Think of it like pg called a hundred year lisp language. Perl 6 might be the age proof Perl language. When you have such and ambitious goal the time taken is worth to fulfill it. Larry wall figured out quite a while back evolving Perl 5 may fix some warts but it won't solve the larger problem. The larger problem today is…

In the context I was talking about it really doesn't matter what I think as I am not a decision maker at some big company. Calling something the N+1 version tends to make people think it is the next version and not a proof of concept. It does matter what is said in the trades these people read:

for example: http://www.infoworld.com/search/google?cx=014839440456418836...

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#135

Post by edwinnathaniel » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 9:37 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #130

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use a few prog. langs. and still prefer Java in many cases because the tooling is more advanced than any other language platforms. Thank you for insulting Hadoop, Hbase, Cassandra, GWT commiters and developers at Google, Twitter, LinkedIN, and many more smart people who happened to choose Java. Nice reply with no factual support.

I don't if its 'chose' or 'forced to choose' by pointy haired managers, mate! By the way when given the choice its clear what the founders choose. Larry Page and Sergey Brin chose C++ and Python and Mark Zuckerberg chose Php. Twitter started out on Rails. So its clear the Java mess seeps in only when the hackers are cleared from the scene and the layers of management begin to take control.

Yup, Paul Buchheit was somehow forced to use Java to write GMail with q gun in his head or something. And somehow Twitter engineers was forced to use Java because management said so...

I don't even want to know how you came into these conclusions. They don't make any sense at all.

Java was 3 years old when Google started off. Did you get the link where one of the founders was asking question about Java back in 98 regarding web development? Did you know that Java has been used for many many years inside Google when these so called hackers were still working there?

Did you know that Twitter actually gets more stable when they migrated to Scala and Java? Did you check the presentation by Twitter engineer as to why they moved away? Those are technical presentations, not management business type of presentation. Are you suggesting that rails hackers were the culprit of all Twitter scalability iscsues?

I am unsure if we live in the same world mate.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#136

Post by SamReidHughes » Sun, Apr 01, 2012, 3:55 AM UTC

calpaterson wrote: post #42

yummyfajitas wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the experience of Haskell is relevant here. Once Haskell introduced first class functions, everyone stopped using typeclasses. [edit: apparently my sarcasm was too subtle. HOF and typeclasses are both vitally important pieces of Haskell, which are orthogonal to each other. I'm pretty sure both were in Haskell from day 1. Some code for which both are essential: class Monad m where (>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) ->…

I don't think typeclasses were in from day one, they were added quite late in the development of the language (but some years before H98). I don't think they're in Miranda, for example. Here's a paper introducing them. http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=227700

Type classes were in Haskell 1.0. See http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rtFsiQC...

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#137

Post by lapusta » Sun, Apr 01, 2012, 5:24 PM UTC

hammersend wrote: post #68

lapusta wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It pretty much depends on industry. Look at mobile, 2007: J2ME, Symbian, Windows Mobile, BlackBerry -> 2012: iOS, Android, Windows Phone. Now look at the web: it was more of a evolution than revolution. What happened at back-end, like server-side functionality of business apps? They didn't really change and probably won't change for a longer period of time. Even stuff like Hadoop for big data or Groovy for DSLs were…

"Look at mobile, 2007: J2ME, Symbian, Windows Mobile, BlackBerry -> 2012: iOS, Android, Windows Phone." Blackberry remains much more relevant than windows phone. You also forgot to mention Bada which also has more share than wp and is growing. I'm not trying to beat up on wp but as it stands reality conflicts significantly with marketing. Edit: why the down mod? if I'm in error, please point out where.

Their new platform (BB 10) is incompatible with old apps. And Bada was merged into Tizen, so it's future looks uncertain for me.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#138

Post by amalter » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 2:51 AM UTC

cpeterso wrote: post #117

JunkDNA wrote: post #3

Wow, how can you seriously plan releases of a programming language out to 2021? That is an eternity in this industry. Even 2015 for JDK 9 seems mighty far off, especially accounting for the usual slippage of release dates with big software projects.

Java 6 was released in 2006. Java 7 was released in 2011. Almost 5 years. Java 8's planned release for 2013 may be overly optimistic.

There was the small speedbump of Sun dying and being purchased by Oracle in the process.

I'm no Oracle fanboi, but I bet without the legal and corporate circus, they will iterate faster.