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How can I get my engineers to accept being on call?

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Re: How can I get my engineers to accept being on call?

#41

Post by lb1lf »

Where I work, the on-call deal is that it is opt-in, you're on one week and then have six weeks or so during which you will not be put back on call no matter what.

Base compensation which you receive regardless of whether there are any incidents during the week or not, plus hourly compensation (50-100% overtime + another 40% for the inconvenience)

Also, those who have opted in are quite flexible when it comes to covering for each other for a few hours - so you can still go to the movies or host a birthday party for a kid without fear of the phone suddenly buzzing.

Result? People are doing their best to get in on the roster, as the compensation feels worth it.

Try that.

Re: How can I get my engineers to accept being on call?

#43

Post by [deleted] »

EA-3167 wrote: post #29
troupe wrote: post #9

The whole, "How can I get people to do X when they don't want to do it for $Y?" is just a funny question. It is like asking, "How do I buy a sandwich when no one wants to sell me one for $1?" Of course if everyone except a single employee IS willing to do X for $Y then the company many choose to replace them.

Seriously, it's crazy that everyone doesn't already know the answer is, "Pay them enough to make it worth their time."

[deleted]

Re: How can I get my engineers to accept being on call?

#44

Post by morelisp »

chrisandchris wrote: post #28
anotherhue wrote: post #3

Submitter but not OP. Just to be clear the only answer to this is a daily stipend for being on call PLUS a payout per incident (min. 1hr billing). And of course, it's opt-in. Anything else is devaluing yourself to the poor decisions of others. "I will work harder!".

No, the only solution in this case is full pay for each minute one is on-call. A (professional) firefighter is mostly on-call on his shift and is paid the same amount whether he's waiting or at an incident. Sure, he does stuff while waiting (like maintenance). But nobody said your It stuff couldn't do maintenance too. If you really need on-call with 15min response time, design your business around it (and your financ…

I have a team of six people, I don't want two members working opposite hours for a week at a time. If anything that will produce more incidents...

The problem with every on-call article is that the best practice for a single team, a company with multiple teams, and a company with multiple continents are totally different.

Re: How can I get my engineers to accept being on call?

#45

Post by kelnos »

cj wrote: post #37
kelnos wrote: post #18

I've done a fair bit of on-call during my career, but I wouldn't do it anymore (at least not for any dollar amount a company would likely pay). I value my time outside work -- and my sleep -- too much. The standard in SV seems to be that on-call is required and uncompensated (some companies will dishonestly try to suggest that your salary is higher than it would be otherwise). This is gross, and we shouldn't stand fo…

I agree if on call is being triggered regularly. I strongly disagree if events that would trigger on call happen rarely (e.g. once per year). Many companies have stable infrastructure but just need the extremely occasional coverage for things that rarely, if ever, happen. I’ve seen people overreact when on call has been introduced, probably from negative experiences at prior jobs. As long as the on call events happen…

That doesn't matter at all to the base rate. Bottom line is that you don't know when that once-in-a-blue-moon page is going to happen, so you still have to curtail your leisure activities in order to be ready. Want to go see a movie? Want to go for a long drive? Want to go on a hike? Want to take your kids (who are young enough to need constant supervision) out somewhere? Want to go anywhere where you don't have cell service? Nope, can't do it. If the company wants me to change how I would otherwise spend my leisure time, they need to pay me for it.

So sure, a company fitting your description would only rarely pay out the elevated rate for someone actively handling an incident, but since an employee still has to do the exact same things when not handling an incident (regardless of how often incidents arise), the base rate needs to be there.

Re: How can I get my engineers to accept being on call?

#46

Post by munchler »

Another unspoken red flag is that this app is having so many bugs in production that it requires constant attention from its developers. How are all these bugs getting past QA? Is there a legit development process in place? Who is signing off on such buggy software?

Re: How can I get my engineers to accept being on call?

#47

Post by chrisandchris »

anotherhue wrote: post #36
chrisandchris wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the only solution in this case is full pay for each minute one is on-call. A (professional) firefighter is mostly on-call on his shift and is paid the same amount whether he's waiting or at an incident. Sure, he does stuff while waiting (like maintenance). But nobody said your It stuff couldn't do maintenance too. If you really need on-call with 15min response time, design your business around it (and your financ…

> pay for each minute one is on-call Isn't that just overtime? I'd much prefer to bring a laptop with me a few weekends a year than be expected to fill a full workday with my family around the house on a weekend.

See it otherwise: It's not overtime, as a firefighter does not overtime 8h a day. It's your job and your job is to be on-call while writing code or vice-versa.

I think the only viable method for such a fast response time is that it's your work. You will have off on Friday but work on Saturday (or something like that).

If it's more like 1h response time sure, take your laptop with you to familys dinner.

Re: How can I get my engineers to accept being on call?

#48

Post by lambdasquirrel »

kelnos wrote: post #18

I've done a fair bit of on-call during my career, but I wouldn't do it anymore (at least not for any dollar amount a company would likely pay). I value my time outside work -- and my sleep -- too much. The standard in SV seems to be that on-call is required and uncompensated (some companies will dishonestly try to suggest that your salary is higher than it would be otherwise). This is gross, and we shouldn't stand fo…

I see two solutions to the conundrum. At one company where I previously worked, they required that employees receive 2x the time off, if you had to fix or work on anything during off-hours. Another company I’ve been at is pretty strict about not shipping things until they’re ready (but, that company doesn’t hire juniors in engineering). Pick your poison.

The fact is that no engineer wants to get paged. But we have to be responsible for our work and our mistakes. That said, I think it’s well understood, the dynamic of pushing rushed work. To which end, you have to construct a system where e.g. product is incentivized to align with engineering on some minimum level of reliability.

Re: How can I get my engineers to accept being on call?

#49

Post by sayrer »

lb1lf wrote: post #41

Where I work, the on-call deal is that it is opt-in, you're on one week and then have six weeks or so during which you will not be put back on call no matter what. Base compensation which you receive regardless of whether there are any incidents during the week or not, plus hourly compensation (50-100% overtime + another 40% for the inconvenience) Also, those who have opted in are quite flexible when it comes to cove…

This is a pretty fair comment, but also not scratching the surface in some ways. Firstly, any decent boss will give you days off if some gnarly on-call stuff happens. Anywhere from "you can come in at 2pm and leave at 5pm" to "take Monday and Tuesday off, no one will track it". This is because they know it is a retention issue.

Secondly, there is a cultural divide sometimes. Generally, iOS programmers aren't on call, because they can't ship anything in less than a day or two. So, you get this phenomenon where they say "I'm an expert in Apple user interfaces" (a fine thing to know about!), but everyone resents them, because they are not on call.

Re: How can I get my engineers to accept being on call?

#50

Post by scarecrowbob »

cj wrote: post #37
kelnos wrote: post #18

I've done a fair bit of on-call during my career, but I wouldn't do it anymore (at least not for any dollar amount a company would likely pay). I value my time outside work -- and my sleep -- too much. The standard in SV seems to be that on-call is required and uncompensated (some companies will dishonestly try to suggest that your salary is higher than it would be otherwise). This is gross, and we shouldn't stand fo…

I agree if on call is being triggered regularly. I strongly disagree if events that would trigger on call happen rarely (e.g. once per year). Many companies have stable infrastructure but just need the extremely occasional coverage for things that rarely, if ever, happen. I’ve seen people overreact when on call has been introduced, probably from negative experiences at prior jobs. As long as the on call events happen…

Well, consider that "once in a blue moon" might actually be worse given that a) it is not predictable and b) likely to be less compensated.

Like, it doesn't matter if something almost never happens because I'd be "on call" regardless- that ---is--- what it means to be on call.

I did that for many years and it didn't matter so much when my kids were little and I didn't want to, like, go to a rave off the grid or perform music over a weekend or go climbing in BFE Utah.

But I quit a job that I'd had for almost 10 years because of that fact of the work. After a while it's a really bullshit thing to do to folks.

It doesn't matter if I never get called- I still have to be available and that really is something people need to be compensated for.

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