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Brave layoffs

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Re: Brave layoffs

#41

Post by izacus »

cwzwarich wrote: post #35
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #19

I'm going to treat this like a product engineering discussion User Story: As a Private Citizen and Engineer, I want a graphical multi-input interface to load, view, interact with and post documents to remote and local HTTP servers ("web-browsing") on any personal computing device. I want web-browsing to have out of the box default security and privacy guardrails that are well documented can be disabled or modified by…

> Why aren't we collectively putting our time/effort etc.. into making Firefox the singular and best FOSS browser ever? [disclaimer: former Servo team member] Mozilla had a chance to advance browser tech with Servo and fumbled it.

Not to be negative, but what value would Servo exactly bring to users and the web after all the engineering effort? I'm sure it was technically impressive.

Chrome, when it came, was stupidly faster than any other competitor, including Mozilla Firefox.

What would Servo bring to make web a big jump forward for us users, beyond ideology and fun work for its developers? (Ideology doesn't sell software, as opensource efforts have proven repeatedly over last 3 decades).

Re: Brave layoffs

#42

Post by izacus »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #36
paulryanrogers wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Chrome OS allow 3P browsers now? I thought the point was it was all just Chrome? (Unless one bypasses the default restrictions.)

ChromeOS lets you run Android apps which integrate nicely enough (eg opening links in the app), and also there's the virtual Debian (by default) part that doesn't integrate as well but is more flexible. So yes, you can run other browsers although last I checked it was a little bumpy.

Last I checked Brave had no support for large screens (tablets, foldables, chromebooks) on Android at all - it was horrible from usability perspective.

Re: Brave layoffs

#43

Post by yashasolutions »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #19

I'm going to treat this like a product engineering discussion User Story: As a Private Citizen and Engineer, I want a graphical multi-input interface to load, view, interact with and post documents to remote and local HTTP servers ("web-browsing") on any personal computing device. I want web-browsing to have out of the box default security and privacy guardrails that are well documented can be disabled or modified by…

Firefox is getting many things right, but maybe we need something like some community fork with a leadership that's able to create a constructive effort to bring back the focus on what was once the spirit of this browser.

There are many non-aligned efforts with various directions, some focused on privacy, some on UI config, etc. maybe getting these people together to create something common where something can be integrated into one.

Just to keep rambling, I'd add that maybe a online conference independently run to get some important conversion going in the community, with the various firefox-fork maintainers and other important contributor, and try to layout some common roadmap, outline the main issues and get people exited again about the product would be a relatively low-hanging fruit to this started.

Re: Brave layoffs

#44

Post by pluc »

Well the good news is that there are plenty of other companies using the exact same technology to produce the exact same product!

Re: Brave layoffs

#45

Post by chromakode »

izacus wrote: post #41
cwzwarich wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why aren't we collectively putting our time/effort etc.. into making Firefox the singular and best FOSS browser ever? [disclaimer: former Servo team member] Mozilla had a chance to advance browser tech with Servo and fumbled it.

Not to be negative, but what value would Servo exactly bring to users and the web after all the engineering effort? I'm sure it was technically impressive. Chrome, when it came, was stupidly faster than any other competitor, including Mozilla Firefox. What would Servo bring to make web a big jump forward for us users, beyond ideology and fun work for its developers? (Ideology doesn't sell software, as opensource effo…

Same selling points as Chromium originally: faster and safer. The premise of Servo is that it'd make better use of multicore and would be safer because it was written in a memory-safe language. For modern users the big one is probably battery usage, though, which Safari excels at but would be harder for an open source player that has to support every device.

Re: Brave layoffs

#46

Post by satvikpendem »

sirwhinesalot wrote: post #25
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #19

I'm going to treat this like a product engineering discussion User Story: As a Private Citizen and Engineer, I want a graphical multi-input interface to load, view, interact with and post documents to remote and local HTTP servers ("web-browsing") on any personal computing device. I want web-browsing to have out of the box default security and privacy guardrails that are well documented can be disabled or modified by…

> Why aren't we collectively putting our time/effort etc.. into making Firefox the singular and best FOSS browser ever? Because the leadership is hellbent on copying Chrome but worse and investing in utterly pointless endeavors instead of making a good browser. It's a shame. Giving money to the Mozilla Foundation is the same as throwing it to a black hole. I hope a new truly FOSS browser shows up and catches on that…

Isn't that because Firefox itself basically makes no money? I know about Google's deal with them but it seems like Mozilla is trying to diversify away from them.

Re: Brave layoffs

#47

Post by satvikpendem »

cwzwarich wrote: post #35
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #19

I'm going to treat this like a product engineering discussion User Story: As a Private Citizen and Engineer, I want a graphical multi-input interface to load, view, interact with and post documents to remote and local HTTP servers ("web-browsing") on any personal computing device. I want web-browsing to have out of the box default security and privacy guardrails that are well documented can be disabled or modified by…

> Why aren't we collectively putting our time/effort etc.. into making Firefox the singular and best FOSS browser ever? [disclaimer: former Servo team member] Mozilla had a chance to advance browser tech with Servo and fumbled it.

Are they not using any Rust in the codebase at all? My impression was that they abandoned Servo but still rewrote parts in Rust.

Re: Brave layoffs

#49

Post by thfuran »

satvikpendem wrote: post #46
sirwhinesalot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why aren't we collectively putting our time/effort etc.. into making Firefox the singular and best FOSS browser ever? Because the leadership is hellbent on copying Chrome but worse and investing in utterly pointless endeavors instead of making a good browser. It's a shame. Giving money to the Mozilla Foundation is the same as throwing it to a black hole. I hope a new truly FOSS browser shows up and catches on that…

Isn't that because Firefox itself basically makes no money? I know about Google's deal with them but it seems like Mozilla is trying to diversify away from them.

I'd say it's because it is the nature of bureaucracy to expand. An open source browser doesn't need to make money, but a foundation tends not to maintain an unerring focus on a single specific goal.

Re: Brave layoffs

#50

Post by sirwhinesalot »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #31
sirwhinesalot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why aren't we collectively putting our time/effort etc.. into making Firefox the singular and best FOSS browser ever? Because the leadership is hellbent on copying Chrome but worse and investing in utterly pointless endeavors instead of making a good browser. It's a shame. Giving money to the Mozilla Foundation is the same as throwing it to a black hole. I hope a new truly FOSS browser shows up and catches on that…

>Because the leadership is hellbent on copying Chrome but worse and investing in utterly pointless endeavors instead of making a good browser. Is this a hypothesis that we can specify and test? Is this how we would approach this problem? It sounds more like a cynical write-off, not a actual strategy >I hope a new truly FOSS browser shows up and catches on that does not use Blink and isn't owned by a group of human-sh…

> Is this a hypothesis that we can specify and test? Is this how we would approach this problem? It sounds more like a cynical write-off, not a actual strategy

There is nothing to test, it's why I stopped using Firefox. Check the Mozilla foundation page for all the crap they fund instead of the browser. Look how much the UI looks like Chrome, even little things like clicking the searchbar expanding it outside its bounds.

> I'm suggesting, instead of writing off Firefox, we (you specifically, and me and whomever else wants to) start engaging with Mozilla to help figure this stuff out

They don't listen to feedback. When Apple (the company known for telling people they were holding their phones wrong) introduced the safari tab-redesign that merged tabs with the searchbar, it was nearly universally disliked and they backtracked on the change. Apple of all companies backtracked on a bad design. Mozilla? They just keep on going.

When Nintendo was struggling due to the failure of the Wii U, Satoru Iwata took on a massive pay cut to avoid firing people. Mozilla? Fired the Servo team and raised executive compensation.

> In 2020 Mozilla announced it would cut 25% of its worldwide staff of nearly 1,000 to reduce costs. Firefox has fallen from 30% market share to 4% in 10 years. Despite this, executive pay increased 400%, with Mitchell Baker, Mozilla’s top executive, receiving $2.4m in 2018.

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