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My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

nautil.us

21–30 of 53 posts

Re: My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

#21

"I have what is called “aphantasia,” the absence of voluntary imagination of the senses. I know what a top hat is. I can describe its main characteristics. I can even draw an above-average impression of one on a piece of paper for you. But I can’t visualize it mentally. What’s wrong with me?" How can you draw a thing without visualizing it? Do the coordinates of the vertices appear in your head or instructions about…

This is an absolutely correct question to ask. It's also a good question to ask people who claim they can visualize things well, but can't draw.

I think people vastly, vastly overstate how well they can actually visualize something in their mind. Most people can't visualize a circle of a solid color and change the color in their mind, let alone visualize a face or anything significant.

Re: My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

#22

"I have what is called “aphantasia,” the absence of voluntary imagination of the senses. I know what a top hat is. I can describe its main characteristics. I can even draw an above-average impression of one on a piece of paper for you. But I can’t visualize it mentally. What’s wrong with me?" How can you draw a thing without visualizing it? Do the coordinates of the vertices appear in your head or instructions about…

[dead]

Re: My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

#23

I'm struggling to figure out if my mind's eye "sees" anything, or if I'm just imagining the concept of the item I'm thinking about. If I'm comparing this vision to having a dream, say, it's certainly not visual. "...there is a simple and helpful test that can give you a clue into whether you may have it: Close your eyes and try to imagine an apple, seeing it mentally in your mind's eye. If you can see anything (anyth…

I've talked extensively to friends about this because I see nothing. I can picture nothing. It's just a void. Interestingly, it hasn't always been this way for me. I remember when I was in elementary and middle school, I could take exams and see the page the answer was on in the textbook in my mind. I'm not sure when or how I lost it, but it's gone. I do sometimes dream in video, though. For me, most of what happens…

I also was able to see stuff in middle school, like in a movie. Now I can't see anything, like you. And I also have a lot of music in my head

Re: My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

#24

"I have what is called “aphantasia,” the absence of voluntary imagination of the senses. I know what a top hat is. I can describe its main characteristics. I can even draw an above-average impression of one on a piece of paper for you. But I can’t visualize it mentally. What’s wrong with me?" How can you draw a thing without visualizing it? Do the coordinates of the vertices appear in your head or instructions about…

>How can you draw a thing without visualizing it?

Speaking personally: my hand just moves. A top hat is roughly an elliptical base with a smaller cylinder affixed to it on-center, maybe a colored band or a bow wrapped around the bottom. The band is another cylinder w/ less height circumscribed into the larger one. The bow is maybe two triangles connected w/ a circle. Add some squigglies and shading to make the bow look like fabric. All this has to be skewed by perspective, which is going to be some lines I lay down w/ a straight edge. I like pencil, because I make lots of mistakes. I hated art-class as a kid because markers, crayons, colored pencils, etc. were torture to me, I had no idea how someone could commit to permanence w/ the first stroke. (Obviously had no idea what aphantasia was, then, but I do remember thinking pretty early on how _weird_ guided meditation sessions were. The backs of my eyelids are pretty uninteresting.)

>Do the coordinates of the vertices appear in your head or instructions about how to move your hand?

I don't see anything except what is on the paper. I probably use more guidelines than most, and my (admittedly amateurish) art looks very "sketch-y" _because it is._ I use lots of thin strokes or draw guidelines and erase ones that don't seem right. I'm very bad at "rendering" final scenes, I essentially have to just trace my own work very deliberately. (Though I'm slowly learning to lean on tracing via layers in digital tools to help with that.)

The facts of the "scene" are just present in my mind. My muscle memory acts on them. I am usually repulsed by what's on the paper and refine it. It's maybe akin to an internal monologue; closest thing I can think of is if someone was reading me a recipe over the phone: but instead of ingredients it was simple shapes "draw this, then that on top of it, but erase this line here at the bottom." Though it's not really a voice, exactly, unless I choose to vocalize or sub-vocalize it.

I don't really know how to describe it, I don't "see" the facts, or "hear" the facts, they're just _there._ If you ask me about my car, it's a blue Subaru. I didn't envision their emblem, or see the color blue, or the outline of the car, or anything like that. I just know it's a Subaru, and it's regal blue pearl - 35J. (Ironically I'm fucking terrible at trivia games.)

Also - if you ask me to draw with my eyes closed - you're probably going to get a bunch of disjoint strokes. It took a long time for me to figure out how to effectively use a digital tablet. (I'm still not sure I love it, but digital authoring fills too many other gaps for me to give up on it.)

Re: My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

#25
post #18

When I decide to see things in my mind, if I don't focus enough to keep them still they never cease to become something else than they represent. If I imagine a luxurious green field with an apple tree, immediately if I don't control the scene mentally to conserve it, some apple will fall producing a noise, some mad cow will run into the fov, trying to hit the apple with its horn, yelling and distracting me or whatev…

I’m currently not sure if I have aphantasia or not.

I don’t remember the number of windows in my house, and I’m currently not in or near my house, but no problem — I simply wander through my house in my mind, and count the windows: 9.

So I cannot have aphantasia, right? How can I “visually” count the windows in my house without the capability to “see” in my mind?

But all those tests? I never really “see” that darn apple, at least not in the way that “awake-plus-photons” seeing works for me. Not even close. It’s more like seeing conceptually, or in the abstract.

Plus, I can relate to your comment. Maybe I have a focus problem, not an aphantasia problem?

But I can plan, design, and implement really complex software systems, so I cannot have a focus problem, right?

Re: My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

#26
"In my head, the way it happens is..." Okay, sure, man. Whatever you say.

Decades of research have proven that people cannot be trusted to describe how their own minds work. We are unreliable narrators of our own experience even in the best conditions, and having a zeitgeisty, quirky trait like aphantasia to wear as a badge will obviously skew the results even further.

Personally, I don't believe for a second that there are a significant number of sighted, otherwise typical human beings out there who have zero ability to visualize anything. Of course, people get better at things with practice, so I buy that some people might be better at it than others. I couldn't recall melodies very well before studying music for several years. But if you know what an apple looks like, and you can describe that or draw it, even crudely, then you have some inner representation of what an apple looks like. Whatever words you use to convey your internal experience of recalling or assembling the relevant information are inconsequential.

Re: My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

#27
post #24

"I have what is called “aphantasia,” the absence of voluntary imagination of the senses. I know what a top hat is. I can describe its main characteristics. I can even draw an above-average impression of one on a piece of paper for you. But I can’t visualize it mentally. What’s wrong with me?" How can you draw a thing without visualizing it? Do the coordinates of the vertices appear in your head or instructions about…

>How can you draw a thing without visualizing it? Speaking personally: my hand just moves. A top hat is roughly an elliptical base with a smaller cylinder affixed to it on-center, maybe a colored band or a bow wrapped around the bottom. The band is another cylinder w/ less height circumscribed into the larger one. The bow is maybe two triangles connected w/ a circle. Add some squigglies and shading to make the bow lo…

I have the condition, as well (that is, I may have a short visual flash or broad impression, but I can't sustain this), still, part of my work is working as a designer and I'm considered proficient at drawing. It really comes down to classic poetics and relying on / trusting your gestures, while you are drawing. The amazing thing is that you can produce a stroke, you couldn't have thought of in a controlled way, and you're kind of surprising yourself. (I believed for a long time, it would be like this for everybody.)

BTW, this may be related or not, but I have learned to detest gesture based UIs in apps, and, since this has become the prevalent form of control, I've removed about all apps from my phone.

Re: My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

#28
post #18

When I decide to see things in my mind, if I don't focus enough to keep them still they never cease to become something else than they represent. If I imagine a luxurious green field with an apple tree, immediately if I don't control the scene mentally to conserve it, some apple will fall producing a noise, some mad cow will run into the fov, trying to hit the apple with its horn, yelling and distracting me or whatev…

I’m currently not sure if I have aphantasia or not. I don’t remember the number of windows in my house, and I’m currently not in or near my house, but no problem — I simply wander through my house in my mind, and count the windows: 9. So I cannot have aphantasia, right? How can I “visually” count the windows in my house without the capability to “see” in my mind? But all those tests? I never really “see” that darn ap…

Wow, you don't have very many windows.

Re: My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

#29
post #18

When I decide to see things in my mind, if I don't focus enough to keep them still they never cease to become something else than they represent. If I imagine a luxurious green field with an apple tree, immediately if I don't control the scene mentally to conserve it, some apple will fall producing a noise, some mad cow will run into the fov, trying to hit the apple with its horn, yelling and distracting me or whatev…

I’m currently not sure if I have aphantasia or not. I don’t remember the number of windows in my house, and I’m currently not in or near my house, but no problem — I simply wander through my house in my mind, and count the windows: 9. So I cannot have aphantasia, right? How can I “visually” count the windows in my house without the capability to “see” in my mind? But all those tests? I never really “see” that darn ap…

I would describe my mental vision as working the same way as you, and have always tested highly in my ability to mentally manipulate 3D objects. I don't think this is aphantasia so much as a language issue when describing mental processes. I am a little surprised that some comments here reference people who claim to be able to generate mental images as if they see them, that's certainly a different level of visualization.

Funny enough my son can't dream. It took him awhile to figure out something was different, and he was jealous that other people got to experience something 'like VR' when they sleep. I tried testing him for aphantasia by asking him to describe mental pictures and he seemed not to have it. Personally I have very vivid dreams. The brain is an interesting thing, and it's funny how hard it is to communicate the internal workings.

Re: My Brain Doesn’t Picture Things

#30

"In my head, the way it happens is..." Okay, sure, man. Whatever you say. Decades of research have proven that people cannot be trusted to describe how their own minds work. We are unreliable narrators of our own experience even in the best conditions, and having a zeitgeisty, quirky trait like aphantasia to wear as a badge will obviously skew the results even further. Personally, I don't believe for a second that th…

I tend to agree. I think we just vary somewhat in how aware we are of our internal processes, with most of those processes being unconscious.

For example, I am very adept at art, particularly color and shading, yet I struggle to consciously imagine color or shading. I can consciously imagine 3-dimensional shapes and rotate them, but I struggle with any other visual data.

And yet I demonstrably CAN generate other visual data because I can draw and paint things, even things I have never seen before.

Clearly my brain is actually doing that work, even if I am just not conscious of it, thus I don't ascribe aphantasia to myself. My brain is perfectly functional in this area.

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