Kentucky made child care free for child care workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Kentucky made child care free for child care workers

#101

Post by avgDev » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 5:51 PM UTC

isykt wrote: post #80

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rich get handouts in Kentucky On what planet are child-care workers the rich?

The key phrase here is “regardless of household income.” There’s a very simple way to make sure rich people don’t get free shit, and that’s capping stuff like this so that rich people don’t get to take advantage of it. I’ll give you an example: there is no universe in which I personally ought to have had my student loans forgiven. My household income tipped into the seven figures during the pandemic. But some debt fo…

Congrats on 7 figures! That is a pretty sweet income.

Re: Kentucky made child care free for child care workers

#102

Post by thsksbd » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 5:54 PM UTC

Widespread use of child care is a symptom of a society in a terminal stage.

It's necessary when both parents need to work (or the rate of cohabiting parents has collapsed leading to single parents, ie moms)

The teacher student ratio must be small to get half decent care.

The care must be affordable so that it is less expensive than the least economically remunerated parent.

The ratio * tuition puts a ceiling on the teacher pay. Pay sucks so the quality of care providers is, for most kids, low (there are boutique facilities with long waiting lists, of course).

Parents have more pressure not to have kids (myself, all my kids care tuitions costs us >$50k/year for three kids).

This leads to a collapse in natality rates.

What's the solution? I don't know.

Re: Kentucky made child care free for child care workers

#103

Post by pj_mukh » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

akavi wrote: post #55

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #2

Universal childcare is low-hanging fruit for America. Unfortunately, there is a vocal section (mostly married men) who want a stay-at-home mom and believe this will, similar to women entering the workforce following the advent of contraception and the civil rights movement, "force" their wives into the workplace.

Universal Childcare at the margin means some people who would rather take care of their own children are pushed to take a job and have someone else watch their child. I fail to see why that's superior to a universal childcare subsidy, which can be used for childcare or retained if someone wishes to care for their child themself. Or better yet, a universal child allowance that parents can use to defray whatever child…

That’s a fine implementation but the flipside is a constant subsidy regardless of geography is basically the same as forcing a parent to not work in HCOL areas,

If it was a childcare voucher that was guaranteed to get your child a seat that could be maybe exchanged for cash if you don’t want to go to work, that would be fine.

It’s the same problem with UBI. I don’t need a basic income or childcare subsidy.

I need a basic purchasing power.

Re: Kentucky made child care free for child care workers

#104

Post by larkost » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 5:58 PM UTC

Racing0461 wrote: post #67

mrguyorama wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that's like antithetical to the entire concept of taxes in general and their use for all. Government services are not a market and should not be. We pay for everyone's schooling because educated people make a better democracy. If you decide the public system isn't for you, why should you have any entitlement to not continue to pay for everyone else's children like everyone else?

I don't mind paying for "public school" because its pretty much a "prison lite" system for "youths" which keeps them under close eye instead of running around in society untethered. But for the people that actually want their kids to exist in a learning environment, they should have an option instead of being forced to send their kids to their locally assigned public school.

You have all the options you can afford. But... 1. You should not have the option of skipping out on the taxes you pay for the general school system. So no rebates. 2. Your fellow taxpayers should not have to subsidize your decisions in your child's education. So no vouchers.

If that means that you don't have the means to send your child to your chosen school... then that is capitalism.

Re: Kentucky made child care free for child care workers

#105

Post by api » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 5:59 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #6

ctoth wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from the south and have never once heard anything like this. Any source? It sounds like a caricature.

> from the south and have never once heard anything like this I should have added that I've typically heard it in liberal suburbs, not rural America. Good, recent example is this thread [1] right here on HN (in particular this comment [2]). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654342 . [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654578

The thing about women entering the workforce making it impossible to have a single earner home is nonsense. The problem is housing.

Most things are the same price or cheaper as a percentage of median income today except housing. That’s because housing is treated as investment meant to appreciate, leading to perverse incentives to artificially restrict supply.

IMHO housing is the economic problem in the Western world. Most of the reason younger people feel poorer than their parents is housing. Most of the pressure on families is housing. The demographic collapse issue is due in part to housing costs. Real estate is cancer and the most important economic battle of today is finding a way to break the real estate market.

All the people panicking over demographics should be in favor of state and federal density mandates, telework where possible, and zoning reform.

Re: Kentucky made child care free for child care workers

#106

Post by Gibbon1 » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 6:01 PM UTC

deprecative wrote: post #17

isykt wrote: post #8

[flagged]

This right here is why we can't get anything done. Republicans say that the poor will benefit so we can't give them money. The center-right will say we can't do that, the rich might benefit, we can't give them money. So what happens is the rich get all the money. Stop putting means testing garbage on these bills. It only means those who need the assistance on the edge will be denied.

Someone had a comment about Clinton's reflexive criticism of Sanders free college tuition plan, that it was a give away to upper middle class students. Reality upper class and upper middle class students get free tuition from their parents. Taxing wealthy parents and giving some of the money back to their kids as free tuition isn't really a freebee.

They also pointed out the wealthy fret that their kids are growing up to be wastrels, fail sons and daughters. And they think poor kids are like that. When a poor kid that knuckles under and goes to college isn't like that.

Re: Kentucky made child care free for child care workers

#107

Post by werdogpnweq5rio » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

steven-xu wrote: post #9

Setting aside the philosophical free market questions, additional government subsidy childcare seems fine. There’s a positive externality of readily available childcare: one adult to many children is more efficient than home care, and parents being able to work generates economic production, taxes, etc. But couldn’t we come up with a subsidy with less market distortion? A specific subsidy to pay for childcare for chi…

This is America. It doesn't matter whether a policy if objectively good or bad. It has to have some farcical fig leaf justification beyond making the world better. Making childcare free for all people would pay for itself in increased productivity, improve the financial security of poor families, and would lead to massive improvements in the wellbeing of poor children. But the effects in the real world don't matter, because in La-La Land it's communist and that means it's Stalinist and that means it's Satanist and that means they're going to give your gas stove a sex change and put 5G in your hydroxychloroquine.

American politics are stupid. This shouldn't be a surprise to you.

Re: Kentucky made child care free for child care workers

#108

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 6:04 PM UTC

Racing0461 wrote: post #46

bradleyjg wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds lovely At this point in the political universe these are the only measures that get through. We are living in a post policy era of governance. Hopefully the wonks can find some way to get the upper hand again, but I’m not optimistic.

>>> We are living in a post policy era of governance What do you mean by this?

It's not my claim, but I'll take a stab at it.

The increasingly accessible and increasingly rapid outrage/feedback loop brought to us by 24/7 cable news, social media, etc. has made it harder to push forward on meaningful complicated legislation.

Something like the Voting Rights Act, Medicare, Social Security, or interstate highways would, I suspect, be strangled in the crib today by vested interests spreading misinformation about them.

Re: Kentucky made child care free for child care workers

#109

Post by isykt » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 6:04 PM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #89

isykt wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key phrase here is “regardless of household income.” There’s a very simple way to make sure rich people don’t get free shit, and that’s capping stuff like this so that rich people don’t get to take advantage of it. I’ll give you an example: there is no universe in which I personally ought to have had my student loans forgiven. My household income tipped into the seven figures during the pandemic. But some debt fo…

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that adding a rule that requires an administrator to figure out who is too wealthy to deserve some benefit and an enforcement arm to chase down and punish people who utilize a benefit that they are too wealthy to deserve is more expensive than the benefit (some) wealthy people would gain if the benefit were universal.

Another poster in this comment thread said that the money is clawed back automatically through tax returns. So which is it?

Re: Kentucky made child care free for child care workers

#110

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

pj_mukh wrote: post #103

akavi wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal Childcare at the margin means some people who would rather take care of their own children are pushed to take a job and have someone else watch their child. I fail to see why that's superior to a universal childcare subsidy, which can be used for childcare or retained if someone wishes to care for their child themself. Or better yet, a universal child allowance that parents can use to defray whatever child…

That’s a fine implementation but the flipside is a constant subsidy regardless of geography is basically the same as forcing a parent to not work in HCOL areas, If it was a childcare voucher that was guaranteed to get your child a seat that could be maybe exchanged for cash if you don’t want to go to work, that would be fine. It’s the same problem with UBI. I don’t need a basic income or childcare subsidy. I need a b…

> That’s a fine implementation but the flipside is a constant subsidy regardless of geography is basically the same as forcing a parent to not work in HCOL areas,

Compared to the existence of HCOL areas without a subsidy, no, its not even incentivizing, much less forcing that.

Compared to a hypothetical system which accelerates existing price divergence by adding extra subsidies in already high-cost areas, sure, but drawing people out of HCOL areas also mitigates HCOL.