Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives • Hacker News Board

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#111

Post by kamaal » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 2:46 AM UTC

ootachi wrote: post #109

jrockway wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that type erasure makes programming easier and less error prone?

What choice did they have? Either break compatibility, or use type erasure.

Oracle's primary concern isn't to rewrite Java or to spend resources to make Java awesome enough to compete with the latest stuff that is coming.

Their fundamental concern is to milk Java as much and as long as they can to drive their sales for Oracle DB and associated business products. And that makes perfect sense too, they are in business to make money anything else and they won't be doing their job properly. Don't you see what has become of Sun Microsystems? They were making awesome stuff by the day for somebody else's profits. Oracle is not going to make the same mistake again.

Java is oracle's strategic investment in using that as a leverage to drive sales else where. And looking at their segment, its mean't mostly for large corporate programmers and not hacker, start ups and alike.

I bet IBM makes sufficient contribution to COBOL still just to keep their mainframe sales alive and not because they want COBOL to be awesome enough to rule the world.

Similarly Oracle's contributions and investments to Java are going to be for driving their sales not for sake of making Java awesome.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#112

Post by spacemanaki » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 3:15 AM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #102

spacemanaki wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, Gilad Bracha, Philip Wadler, Martin Odersky... all drunken, retarded monkeys.

So you're saying that type erasure makes programming easier and less error prone?

No, did I say anything like that? I was merely bemused that you called the designers of generics "drunk retarded monkeys", when they are clearly anything but, based on their work before and after.

Name calling isn't really helpful. I don't like Java either, but there are a lot of very smart people who worked on it, and many of them labored under constraints I do not envy. That's all.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#113

Post by spacemanaki » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 3:19 AM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #111

ootachi wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What choice did they have? Either break compatibility, or use type erasure.

Oracle's primary concern isn't to rewrite Java or to spend resources to make Java awesome enough to compete with the latest stuff that is coming. Their fundamental concern is to milk Java as much and as long as they can to drive their sales for Oracle DB and associated business products. And that makes perfect sense too, they are in business to make money anything else and they won't be doing their job properly. Don'…

I basically agree with almost everything you wrote here and in the other long one you posted replying to me up thread.

But I downvoted you because this has almost nothing to do with ootachi's comment about the realities that the designers of generics had to cope with. You're just regurgitating the same criticisms that has been leveled against Java for years.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#114

Post by kamaal » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 3:41 AM UTC

spacemanaki wrote: post #113

kamaal wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oracle's primary concern isn't to rewrite Java or to spend resources to make Java awesome enough to compete with the latest stuff that is coming. Their fundamental concern is to milk Java as much and as long as they can to drive their sales for Oracle DB and associated business products. And that makes perfect sense too, they are in business to make money anything else and they won't be doing their job properly. Don'…

I basically agree with almost everything you wrote here and in the other long one you posted replying to me up thread. But I downvoted you because this has almost nothing to do with ootachi's comment about the realities that the designers of generics had to cope with. You're just regurgitating the same criticisms that has been leveled against Java for years.

It has a answer to ootachi's comment.

>>What choice did they have?

The only choice Oracle has is to invest in Java in areas that is going to help them sell their products.

That is the only choice Oracle has.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#115

Post by spacemanaki » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 4:28 AM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #114

spacemanaki wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I basically agree with almost everything you wrote here and in the other long one you posted replying to me up thread. But I downvoted you because this has almost nothing to do with ootachi's comment about the realities that the designers of generics had to cope with. You're just regurgitating the same criticisms that has been leveled against Java for years.

It has a answer to ootachi's comment. >>What choice did they have? The only choice Oracle has is to invest in Java in areas that is going to help them sell their products. That is the only choice Oracle has.

> It has a answer to ootachi's comment.

ootachi was was referring to the designers of Java generics, who were working sometime before Java 1.5 was released in 2004, long before Oracle bought Sun.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#116

Post by chromatic » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 5:30 AM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #106

protomyth wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are some manager in a big company and looking at the press, there is little distinction. In fact, more stories have been posted about Python 2.x to 3.x conversions (mostly because Perl 6 is not a story). Heck, I would imagine a couple of people on HN have run into the "can't use Python 3 because it isn't compatible with anything"-meme. Carefully considered logical analysis with realistic risk mitigation gets t…

You are not getting it, Perl 6 is not designed as a successor to Perl 5 but as a Age proof Perl. Think of it like pg called a hundred year lisp language. Perl 6 might be the age proof Perl language. When you have such and ambitious goal the time taken is worth to fulfill it. Larry wall figured out quite a while back evolving Perl 5 may fix some warts but it won't solve the larger problem. The larger problem today is…

When you have such and ambitious goal the time taken is worth to fulfill it.

After almost twelve years of rewrite after rewrite after rewrite, it's no wonder people stop caring.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#117

Post by cpeterso » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 5:31 AM UTC

JunkDNA wrote: post #3

Wow, how can you seriously plan releases of a programming language out to 2021? That is an eternity in this industry. Even 2015 for JDK 9 seems mighty far off, especially accounting for the usual slippage of release dates with big software projects.

Java 6 was released in 2006. Java 7 was released in 2011. Almost 5 years. Java 8's planned release for 2013 may be overly optimistic.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#118

Post by kamaal » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 6:04 AM UTC

chromatic wrote: post #116

kamaal wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not getting it, Perl 6 is not designed as a successor to Perl 5 but as a Age proof Perl. Think of it like pg called a hundred year lisp language. Perl 6 might be the age proof Perl language. When you have such and ambitious goal the time taken is worth to fulfill it. Larry wall figured out quite a while back evolving Perl 5 may fix some warts but it won't solve the larger problem. The larger problem today is…

When you have such and ambitious goal the time taken is worth to fulfill it. After almost twelve years of rewrite after rewrite after rewrite, it's no wonder people stop caring.

Well, more than anybody else you know it well why most of the failures happened.

But for others. I can understand the obvious disappointment. But Perl 6 is designed such that without many of those failures we couldn't have figured it out earlier what it would take to build Perl 6. Perl 6 has a mutable grammar, which means it should be written in itself. And this created a huge problem, because you don't have ready tools in hand to build such a thing. Many of them had to be built from scratch. And people failed many times exploring strategies doing that. Some people got ill, some people lost jobs, and projects like this which span a lot of time and require volunteer effort without much funding takes toll on people.

In many ways there was a lead, Lisp is so extensible because its written in itself. We really should have understood this from history. But achieving that in a non homoiconic language was difficult and required thinking in direction totally new to C based languages.

But great things have come out of it. Audrey's Pugs taught us so many things. And as she says, the 'Perl 6 on CPAN' thing started long back. Moose has become a very awesome tool for OO programming. Other things borrowed from Perl 6, things like given/when have shown a way to Perl 5 for evolution. Devel::Declare showed a new way to do syntax experiments outside core without using source filters. And many great things have come out of it. Its difficult to imagine how Perl 5 will likely evolve over time.

A few years back none of us could have seen Devel::Declare or even Moose coming. I can only imagine how Perl 5 is going to evolve over time.

Lastly I would say Rome was not built in a day. Perl 6 will take time, but it will come out in some years to come.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#119

Post by 6ren » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 7:59 AM UTC

They can plan like this because they are the new cobol - they have an assured install base. If they make 100% back-compatible, and definitely better, everyone will upgrade.

As for the very vague improvements mentioned (GPU, no primitives), these can be seen in response to clear technology trends. Even the embedded GPUs in x86 are getting pretty powerful, though not every business has them - but by 2015 most will. Java has primitives primarily for performance and memory efficiency. Absolutely crucial at Java's inception, they though remain important today, many applications can get away without them (e.g. ruby apps). By 2017. even more apps will be in that category.

Most of the others are similarly responses to clear trends, such as hypervisor-aware and large data support. However, true generics seems problematic because it would break back-compatibility.

My prediction: if they plan to break back-compatibility they will change their mind.

Re: Java 9 with GPU processing, Java 10 will be all-OOP without primitives

#120

Post by shangrila » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 8:10 AM UTC

moonboots wrote: post #81

francoisdevlin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they learned from netscape's mistake, that's why. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

The netscape rewrite became Firefox.

Yeah no kidding. That's one thing people seem to forget about that Joel article ... the new code base he's mocking went on to become the only browser capable of taking on Microsoft's juggernaut for many years. It was faster & better than everything else out there. Eventually the only thing capable of overtaking it was WebKit ... another from-scratch code base!