Earlier quoted context omitted.
In fact they do. Barely any development FOR the french government is done internally, all is externalized to "specialized" extern private companies (a known exemple Cap Gemini). I wouldn't call them clowns, and they do have competent people but they totally do focus more on public money extraction than on quality, like nearly all monopoly position companies. Results are sometime good sometime not.
Calling them clowns would be an insult to clowns.
Reversing 'France Identité': The New French Digital ID
41–50 of 90 posts
Re: Reversing 'France Identité': The New French Digital ID
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Digital identity is the key for scaling democracy up, decreasing bureaucracy and integrating the act of being a citizen in day to day life, instead of being a chore that everyone complains about. It could allow for abuse for sure, but what technology doesn't. Assuming bad faith ab-initio and using those exact "terms of art" give out very strong vibes of conspiracy theories and sovereign citizen fetishes.
> Digital identity is the key for scaling democracy up unintended consequences are the topic at hand right? In all the world's countries, which shows "democracy scaling up" ? The single largest country is called China, they use Digital ID for scaling.
And since it's about France, what does that have to do with China?
Good technology can be used badly by bad people, I don't know if China does that, but I imagine that's what you mean to imply. Vague assertions like yours are not exactly supporting evidence.
Re: Reversing 'France Identité': The New French Digital ID
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could you please expand how any of the findings, or any attempts at digital ID are about surveillance and totalitarianism? Your post, as it is now, is brandishing big and scary words based on flimsy assumptions and without any real backup.
> flimsy assumptions and without any real backup saying this does not make it true -- volumes of political science are written on the topic of public identity. The perfect world where every instrument is applied fairly and in no other way, does not exist. A quick knowledge of modern investigation systems by law and tax authorities will be evidence of the alternate uses of this tech. Details on these topics could easi…
Re: Reversing 'France Identité': The New French Digital ID
#44This is so good and important to show that these identity schemes are more about surveillance than security, as the security guarantees are limited and insufficient for any long period of time. An additional approach I might recommend for exploration would be to find the "offline mode," where it would have to re-use IVs and challenges over a short window when the app can't validate against the back end service. Other…
Is your point "some smartcard schemes don't use key diversification, so this one probably doesn't either", and more generally "some smartcard schemes are implemented insecurely, so surely this one must be too"?
> There may be a DoS vulnerability in some card schemes where you can use 'torn' NFC connections to get the key and transaction counter on the card applet to increment and desynchronize from the counter recorded on the server, bricking the card
Speculation again, or do you have concrete evidence for this protocol being susceptible to torn transactions? Some are, some aren't.
Also, you know what else you can do to a card when you have physical access to it? You can take a pair of scissors and cut it in half! A remote bricking capability would be concerning, but requiring an intentional and repeated transaction tear hardly seems noteworthy.
> Given the physical user enrollment costs, there are some basic impossibilities in these protocols [...] I am very grateful this researcher has done work to discredit this scheme.
It seems like you are generalizing from one concrete project to all smartcard systems, for what seem to be somewhat irrational motives.
Re: Reversing 'France Identité': The New French Digital ID
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would not bet on it. But there is pretty low constraints on what you can do and can not with an NFC chip. Your budget in term of compute and memory is extremely low. I would be surprised a proper RSA/ECDSA signature from an X509 certificate can hold there. Very likely I would say no. And that's why the home made crypto.
> Your budget in term of compute and memory is extremely low. I would be surprised a proper RSA/ECDSA signature from an X509 certificate can hold there. The latest versions of the Java Card spec have VMs on them and have HTTP interfaces: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card There is nothing constrained about modern smart cards: it's just a matter of how much you want to spend on the card and its capabilities.
But even the "classic edition" usually supports regular secure channel communication. It's not TLS, but it achieves the same outcome (i.e. secure remote card access by a remote conceptual terminal).
Re: Reversing 'France Identité': The New French Digital ID
#46I wonder why do they need the whole secure channel thing instead of making the card hold a client certificate and use standard mutual TLS with their backend server.
Another thing to consider is that TLS supports multiple use cases and has multiple versions, so it has stuff like algorithm negotiation, version negotiation and some other things that are really unnecessary when you just want a secure channel between two parties with pre-shared keys[1]. If you strip all those extra things from TLS you'll basically end up making your own protocol anyway.
What I'd like to see is a standardized protocol for this exact use case: two parties with pre-shared public keys, no algo negotiation[2], and only sending what's really needed over the wire without extra metadata. TLS is not quite right for this use case IMO.
[1] Yes, TLS-PSK exists but it's largely an afterthought and not always implemented by libraries, because it's considered a niche use case for TLS. To some degree, same thing can be said about client certificates.
[2] I think the article does say that they have algo negotiation in their custom implementation anyway. Personally I'd hardcode something like ChaCha20Poly1305, mainly because it's reasonably fast in software and on low-power devices.
Re: Reversing 'France Identité': The New French Digital ID
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would not bet on it. But there is pretty low constraints on what you can do and can not with an NFC chip. Your budget in term of compute and memory is extremely low. I would be surprised a proper RSA/ECDSA signature from an X509 certificate can hold there. Very likely I would say no. And that's why the home made crypto.
Smartcards, including the contactless kind (often called NFC, but that’s technically a related but different set of standards), have been able to perform RSA signatures since the 90s. A secure channel between a backend holding the keys (usually in an HSM) and a card read by a mobile device is pretty standard, actually. That's how remote card top-up usually works. The relevant smartcard standards (ISO 7816 or GlobalPl…
My Yubikey (which I imagine is a bit more sophisticated than a NFC tag can be) is said to be able to hold Ed2519 keys and use them for signing, but I was never able to actually do that. :)
Re: Reversing 'France Identité': The New French Digital ID
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Smartcard and NFC are two different beast. The fashion for Smartcard is over, mainly due to the necessity of specialized reader. The wind blows in favor of NFC cards & badge because they are smartphone compatible. But these comes with limitations.
NFC doesn't preclude TLS: > I'm currently analyzing the possibilities of using Yubikeys for TLS client certificate authentication over NFC on iOS devices as part of a single sign-on process, but from what I have been able to gather only OTP seems to been supported? Are there any plans for supporting PIV over NFC? * https://github.com/Yubico/yubikit-ios/issues/5 (functionality added) > This paper introduces a new onli…
Re: Reversing 'France Identité': The New French Digital ID
#49You could go in person to any government building and request a new private key to override the previous one if needed.
Re: Reversing 'France Identité': The New French Digital ID
#50I am far from understanding the technical details. But it feels like they severly violated the rule of not running your own cryptography. If they had used TLS the MITM would have been much less likely as long as the app does not accept user-defined cerificates?