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Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

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Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#111

Post by g232089 »

imiric wrote: post #98
datadeft wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you crush a cockroach, you're a hero. If you crush a beautiful butterfly, you're a villain. Morals have aesthetic criteria." This applies to the context of west vs China. Everything China does is because of oppression and everything the west does is because of democracy and protecting you.

Absolutes are far from helpful in this conversation. There's a fair bit of nuance in this topic, but it can be argued that a totalitarian regime whose primary interest is remaining in power will resort to more oppressive measures towards its citizens than one that at least has some semblance of respecting human rights and democratic processes. This doesn't mean that there aren't things to praise and criticize about b…

One of the most important interests if not the primary interest of a democratically-chosen government is to remain in power as well.

We should be an absolute beacon of morality and principles with a stellar track record to criticise (or even, instill change through violence in) in other countries. That is not the case yet, so let's work on that.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#112

Post by throwaway10507 »

arc-in-space wrote: post #99
bjornsing wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden goes further than most western countries in this case though. For example, the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits dubble punishment for a single crime. Most European countries interpret this to mean that you can be either criminally prosecuted, or administratively sanctioned with "extra tax", but not both. Sweden however has a fondness for doing both. So in Sweden a very realistic scenario in this c…

I have a friend in Sweden who is in the situation you described because of debt accrued by his father . It really is insane. I won't pretend I have any understanding of Swedish law but afaik in just about any other western country you can simply declare bankruptcy and you're more or less a free man once again.

Well to be fair, it's pretty common in EU that you can't bankrupt your way out of taxes, mandatory insurance, fines and other government fees.

This especially bites you in the states with mandatory universal health insurance scheme. The payment is based on your income in a given month/year - e.g. 30%. If you can't pay, your problem... Then, since you're in debt, they are not paying for your treatment. And there is no way to get out-of-the-system private health insurance, it simply doesn't exist. Hospitals have to treat you but the full price of treatment is added to your debt, no discounts are possible. People from the US never realize there are dark parts of the universal healthcare systems too. At least you can bankrupt out of your hospital debt in the US.

This is the reason why people just don't start business here. As an employee you're "safe" - the employer deducts your insurance payment from your wage and that's it, you're not investing into anything, not planning any cashflow.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#113

Post by benterix »

imiric wrote: post #98
datadeft wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you crush a cockroach, you're a hero. If you crush a beautiful butterfly, you're a villain. Morals have aesthetic criteria." This applies to the context of west vs China. Everything China does is because of oppression and everything the west does is because of democracy and protecting you.

Absolutes are far from helpful in this conversation. There's a fair bit of nuance in this topic, but it can be argued that a totalitarian regime whose primary interest is remaining in power will resort to more oppressive measures towards its citizens than one that at least has some semblance of respecting human rights and democratic processes. This doesn't mean that there aren't things to praise and criticize about b…

> What I'm really tired of, though, is everytime there's news about something worth criticizing about China, these comparisons with the West are mentioned. It only serves to muddle the conversation, which can be seen as the intent of whoever brings it up.

They do this because this is the most efficient strategy that works every time - not just in Internet discussions but also in political debate. Look what happens whenever any of atrocities committed by Russia hits the news again - you can be 100% sure that one of the first comments will be something about the USA bombing Sarayevo or Syria etc. Some of these accusations do make sense (like the invasion of Iraq on false premises), some don't (like in Yugoslavia where NATO pretty much stopped the war and "ethnic cleansing" i.e. mass murder). But it doesn't matter: the person who threw the bait have successfully managed to deter the conversation away from the problematic issue and made it someone else's problem.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#114

Post by benterix »

g232089 wrote: post #111
imiric wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutes are far from helpful in this conversation. There's a fair bit of nuance in this topic, but it can be argued that a totalitarian regime whose primary interest is remaining in power will resort to more oppressive measures towards its citizens than one that at least has some semblance of respecting human rights and democratic processes. This doesn't mean that there aren't things to praise and criticize about b…

One of the most important interests if not the primary interest of a democratically-chosen government is to remain in power as well. We should be an absolute beacon of morality and principles with a stellar track record to criticise (or even, instill change through violence in) in other countries. That is not the case yet, so let's work on that.

> We should be an absolute beacon of morality and principles with a stellar track record to criticise ... other countries. That is not the case yet, so let's work on that.

I completely disagree. We can have many problems but when another country, say, invades another one, we should respond appropriately. Waiting until everybody becomes crystal will never work because it's never going to happen.

> (or even, instill change through violence in)

This is a completely different issue, and it is always wrong, no matter who does it, whether it's CIA in South America or Putin's agents in Ukraine. I haven't seen a single case where "instilling change through violence" brought any benefit, but I saw several cases where it completely ruined whole countries, see the so-called Arab spring.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#115

Post by justinclift »

olivermuty wrote: post #71
FredPret wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see your well-developed argument against economic freedom. Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.

Did you just use freedom to escape the system as an argument in favour of the system? Or what is your point here?

> Or what is your point here?

That with enough money, all of the other needs can be fulfilled one way or another?

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#116

Post by justinclift »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #81
FredPret wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see your well-developed argument against economic freedom. Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.

> Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home. That didn’t work for Jack Ma.

Jack Ma is kind of a special case though, as he seemed to feel he was a special case that could get away with challenging the CCP.

While he was still living in China.

Maybe a case of high INT stat, but low WIS?

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#118

Post by eru »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #65
makeitdouble wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda wonder how do you evaluate a thriving software economy in China's case. A bit like Japan, I feel they're not going straight at the OS vendors (Microsoft/Apple) as these will bend over backward to accomadate them anyway, and in every area they've been actively blocked they made their own rival version (e.g. cloud services) Is there anything we can point at to say "Chinese don't have the skills to do it" ?

That weird to say. Many of the SWEs working on OS in the west are Chinese. They have the skills, but it’s just too easy for China to use Android or Linux, or to get the nice Apple experience, then to spend much investing in making their own OS for nationalistic reasons. They have larger problems in terms of semiconductor development and jet turbines that need gobs of resources and have much more national security imp…

Linux is an interesting example. There's no need to make your own Linux, because no sanctions etc can keep you from using Linux.

That's also part of why eg the US hasn't needed to make their own Linux. There's no risk that your Linux supply chain will be cut off in case of a war.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#119

Post by otikik »

tw1984 wrote: post #105
otikik wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak, with a couple exceptions (Police Unions). The US is way more similar to communism in the way the ultrarich accumulate benefits but socialize loses. Another big example is the military, which is essentially a socialist organization.

> If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak wait a second. unions in the US are weak? what a huge joke! UAW stopped the production of US made cars, asking 40% wage increase. Yet that is weak? let me tell you what is "weak" unions - in China, which implements state capitalism, unions represent the interests of the management & business owners, n…

Weakness is a comparative thing. I’m European. Compared to Europe, American unions barely register. You gave an example where one union did something big one in the US once. Still small and weak compared to Europe. Unions can stop the economy of whole countries for 2 weeks if they get really pissed. Often with support from the rest of the population.

I’m not trying to downplay how things are in China by any means, and I believe that the “brainwashing” accusation wasn’t merited. It’s a “elephant vs dog vs ant” situation.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#120

Post by bjornsing »

otikik wrote: post #119
tw1984 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak wait a second. unions in the US are weak? what a huge joke! UAW stopped the production of US made cars, asking 40% wage increase. Yet that is weak? let me tell you what is "weak" unions - in China, which implements state capitalism, unions represent the interests of the management & business owners, n…

Weakness is a comparative thing. I’m European. Compared to Europe, American unions barely register. You gave an example where one union did something big one in the US once. Still small and weak compared to Europe. Unions can stop the economy of whole countries for 2 weeks if they get really pissed. Often with support from the rest of the population. I’m not trying to downplay how things are in China by any means, an…

So? The parent is Chinese. Their point is that Chinese unions are much weaker than US ones. What does Europe have to do with that?
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