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Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

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Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#91

Post by tibbydudeza »

huijzer wrote: post #78
FredPret wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see your well-developed argument against economic freedom. Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.

> Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world Unless you threaten the authoritarian leader via, for example, having too much money or saying negative things. Where, for example, is Jack Ma? He used to be very focal and visible until his disappearance, but nowadays he is allegedly peacefully enjoying his retirement with painting. According to Alibaba co-founder Joe Tsai, Jack Ma "is fine. He is lying l…

He travels afaik - he did a lecture in Tokyo on entrepreneurship - his family is back home in China so there is no risk for the govt.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#92

Post by spacebanana7 »

FredPret wrote: post #67
ookdatnog wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire argument is nonsensical, but this part: > With enough money you can buy all the others is particularly easily falsifiable. A billionaire in China does not have freedom of speech and cannot buy it.

I'd love to see your well-developed argument against economic freedom. Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.

> Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.

This is probably easier for a Chinese millionaire that a Chinese billionaire.

If any of the Chinese big tech guys moved to Australia I imagine it cause a bit of a scandal.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#93

Post by tw1984 »

pca006132 wrote: post #20
aydyn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like he's saying this is not an abuse of the central government, but by a local one. I doubt VPNs are illegal in China in general.

> I doubt VPNs are illegal in China in general. This is a gray area. While people said that the law is only about illegal physical network gateways , in reality the government did sentence people providing VPN services. I think the point they want to make is that even if this is illegal, the penalty in this case is kind of ridiculous.

Using VPNs is very different from selling VPN services for profits.

No one got arrested for building & releasing open source VPN software on github.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#94

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tw1984 wrote: post #88
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VPNs are illegal in China in general, but China isn’t a rule of law country so that in itself isn’t very meaningful (free speech is guaranteed by the Chinese constitution for example, but that’s irrelevant). VPN usage is rarely prosecuted unless they want to get you on something (a basic thing in rule by law).

> VPN usage is rarely prosecuted unless they want to get you on something (a basic thing in rule by law). If they really want to get you on something, using vpn won't be the good excuse anyway as the max penalty is way too low. it is like $100 fine plus maybe up to 2 weeks in detection. in fact, 2 weeks detection for using vpn is unheard of, a few days is already extremely rare. It is like jaywalking & argued with th…

Again, everything in law text doesn’t matter. They will probably pile a bunch of other things on top of it, but if you don’t use a VPN they’ll just get you on something else. More importantly, VPN use opens you up to a bunch of liability that they can pry a bunch of other things from you.

It’s more like being prosecuted for “Treason and jaywalking”.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#95

Post by spacebanana7 »

concordDance wrote: post #73
bjornsing wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden goes further than most western countries in this case though. For example, the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits dubble punishment for a single crime. Most European countries interpret this to mean that you can be either criminally prosecuted, or administratively sanctioned with "extra tax", but not both. Sweden however has a fondness for doing both. So in Sweden a very realistic scenario in this c…

Thats actually horrifying.

The lack of bankruptcy is especially scary.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#96

Post by otikik »

tw1984 wrote: post #77
FredPret wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, so economically free, besides the communism part

China is a typical state capitalist country. You don't have the state looking after the wellfares of individuals, you are on your own all the time. $0 handouts during covid pandemic is the best example. You don't have unions stopping businesses and asking better pay & less working hours for its members. Talking about communism, the US is getting there fast. Look at its current union movement, with both 2024 US presid…

If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak, with a couple exceptions (Police Unions). The US is way more similar to communism in the way the ultrarich accumulate benefits but socialize loses. Another big example is the military, which is essentially a socialist organization.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#97

Post by AmericanChopper »

ookdatnog wrote: post #64
FredPret wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic freedom is second among the freedoms only after physical safety. With enough money you can buy all the others, and all the others exist primarily to ensure you can be safe and end up with enough money. This fact is ignored, overlooked, or pooh-poohed by those whose ambitions for society requires a large state. To maximize human freedom, there's an optimal balance to be struck between a stateless society and…

Your entire argument is nonsensical, but this part: > With enough money you can buy all the others is particularly easily falsifiable. A billionaire in China does not have freedom of speech and cannot buy it.

Primarily due to a lack of economic freedom. If a billionaire in the west (or even just an ordinary wealthy or high income person) doesn’t like how oppressive their government is, they can just take their wealth and productivity to a place they’re more happy with. A wealthy Chinese person has far less property rights over their wealth, they’re absolutely not free to remove it from the country, and their continued access to it relies on continued approval from the CCP.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#98

Post by imiric »

datadeft wrote: post #62
bjornsing wrote: post #40

Where I live (Sweden) it’s legal to use GitHub (with or without a VPN). But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: First the tax authority would take about 100000-200000 USD from me. Then I’d be prosecuted for tax fraud. Nobody would be upset or come to my defense. Not saying I prefer the Chinese system, but it’s interesting that in this specific case it’s probably more lenien…

"If you crush a cockroach, you're a hero. If you crush a beautiful butterfly, you're a villain. Morals have aesthetic criteria." This applies to the context of west vs China. Everything China does is because of oppression and everything the west does is because of democracy and protecting you.

Absolutes are far from helpful in this conversation.

There's a fair bit of nuance in this topic, but it can be argued that a totalitarian regime whose primary interest is remaining in power will resort to more oppressive measures towards its citizens than one that at least has some semblance of respecting human rights and democratic processes. This doesn't mean that there aren't things to praise and criticize about both sides, but _overall_ one system of government is demonstrably more benevolent, to its own citizens, at least.

What I'm really tired of, though, is everytime there's news about something worth criticizing about China, these comparisons with the West are mentioned. It only serves to muddle the conversation, which can be seen as the intent of whoever brings it up.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#99

Post by arc-in-space »

bjornsing wrote: post #70
raverbashing wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: First the tax authority would take about 100000-200000 USD from me. Then I’d be prosecuted for tax fraud And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? (except maybe in 3rd world countries with bribable authorities) (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though)

Sweden goes further than most western countries in this case though. For example, the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits dubble punishment for a single crime. Most European countries interpret this to mean that you can be either criminally prosecuted, or administratively sanctioned with "extra tax", but not both. Sweden however has a fondness for doing both. So in Sweden a very realistic scenario in this c…

I have a friend in Sweden who is in the situation you described because of debt accrued by his father. It really is insane. I won't pretend I have any understanding of Swedish law but afaik in just about any other western country you can simply declare bankruptcy and you're more or less a free man once again.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#100

Post by bjornsing »

winter_blue wrote: post #80
bjornsing wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden goes further than most western countries in this case though. For example, the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits dubble punishment for a single crime. Most European countries interpret this to mean that you can be either criminally prosecuted, or administratively sanctioned with "extra tax", but not both. Sweden however has a fondness for doing both. So in Sweden a very realistic scenario in this c…

> Also, Sweden probably has a more efficient "bailiff authority" (Kronofogdemyndigheten) than most countries. So game over really is game over. They will come to your home, with the police if necessary, and take everything of value there. This might be a bit of silly question: but if someone were to “stand their ground” and try to defend themselves (with weapons they somehow obtained / 3D-printed / etc.) I imagine th…

Sure. If you raise any kind of weapon to the Swedish police you can expect to be gunned down, regardless of circumstances.
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