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Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

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Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#71

Post by olivermuty »

FredPret wrote: post #67
ookdatnog wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire argument is nonsensical, but this part: > With enough money you can buy all the others is particularly easily falsifiable. A billionaire in China does not have freedom of speech and cannot buy it.

I'd love to see your well-developed argument against economic freedom. Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.

Did you just use freedom to escape the system as an argument in favour of the system?

Or what is your point here?

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#72

Post by seanmcdirmid »

throwaway4good wrote: post #16

I don't actually understand the Chinese rules on uncensored internet access. When I travel to China with a mobile phone subscription that supports roaming, I get completely uncensored access to the internet. Surely this is according to Chinese rules. Likewise all the expats and Chinese I have met all used whatever they wanted of US social media plus they had a shit ton of pirated(?) American TV shows and movies. Perh…

I lived in China for 9 years and my VPNs were always broken, to the point that I only used Facebook at work (since we had our own line). Most of my foreigner friends were in similar boats, being programmers none of us were technology illiterate.

You can find pirated American TV shows and movies on china’s internal internet. No need for a VPN. Quite the opposite really, it’s much harder to find those things outside of China.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#73

Post by concordDance »

bjornsing wrote: post #70
raverbashing wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: First the tax authority would take about 100000-200000 USD from me. Then I’d be prosecuted for tax fraud And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? (except maybe in 3rd world countries with bribable authorities) (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though)

Sweden goes further than most western countries in this case though. For example, the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits dubble punishment for a single crime. Most European countries interpret this to mean that you can be either criminally prosecuted, or administratively sanctioned with "extra tax", but not both. Sweden however has a fondness for doing both. So in Sweden a very realistic scenario in this c…

Thats actually horrifying.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#74

Post by seanmcdirmid »

hker wrote: post #13

Some context which may be relevant: many local governments in China are in heavy debt, and they need more income: police have been collecting more and more fines, causing some outrages [1]. There are reports that many civil servants are unpaid for months (in Tianjin [2] and other cities [3][4]), in addition to getting heavy wage cuts [3][5]. A penalty of over 1 million yuan (>145K USD) for using VPN is a new developm…

Tianjin and much of Hebei are kind of basket cases. Tianjin is where the tallest under construction sky scraper in the world is, and I don’t think I’ve ever visited that city (first time in 1999) without seeing a couple unfinished very tall buildings. Chengde I’ve never been to but I can imagine it also has Beijing-sized ambition without having Beijing-sized economic activity.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#75

Post by tw1984 »

throwaway4good wrote: post #53
FredPret wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic freedom is second among the freedoms only after physical safety. With enough money you can buy all the others, and all the others exist primarily to ensure you can be safe and end up with enough money. This fact is ignored, overlooked, or pooh-poohed by those whose ambitions for society requires a large state. To maximize human freedom, there's an optimal balance to be struck between a stateless society and…

China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.

That is not true. You are only allowed to setup businesses that are considered as in non-key sectors. Try setting a private gas station, or an ISP. Good lucky for that. The most recent example is the private tutor business, setting a private tutor business helping kids to do better in their maths exams can get you into big big trouble with the state.

We are talking about an economy that didn't allow people to freely trade salt less than 10 years ago.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#76

Post by KRAKRISMOTT »

makeitdouble wrote: post #43
whatshisface wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How anyone can look at over a billion unique people and say "Chinese this" or "Chinese that" is as far beyond me as anything.

I think I'd take a "Ethiopians can't build an AWS rival", even if Ethiopians are unique and intelligent. But that wouldn't be true for China (don't know market sizes, but I'd assume Tencent's cloud offering for instance is somewhat viable ?)

Ethiopians may not, but Indians and to a lesser extent, Nigerians can.

The next economic boom after Asia will be in West Africa.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#77

Post by tw1984 »

FredPret wrote: post #60
throwaway4good wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.

Sure, so economically free, besides the communism part

China is a typical state capitalist country.

You don't have the state looking after the wellfares of individuals, you are on your own all the time. $0 handouts during covid pandemic is the best example. You don't have unions stopping businesses and asking better pay & less working hours for its members.

Talking about communism, the US is getting there fast. Look at its current union movement, with both 2024 US presidential election candidates openly supporting those unions, man, it is communism, it is cancer.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#78

Post by huijzer »

FredPret wrote: post #67
ookdatnog wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire argument is nonsensical, but this part: > With enough money you can buy all the others is particularly easily falsifiable. A billionaire in China does not have freedom of speech and cannot buy it.

I'd love to see your well-developed argument against economic freedom. Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.

> Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world

Unless you threaten the authoritarian leader via, for example, having too much money or saying negative things. Where, for example, is Jack Ma? He used to be very focal and visible until his disappearance, but nowadays he is allegedly peacefully enjoying his retirement with painting. According to Alibaba co-founder Joe Tsai, Jack Ma "is fine. He is lying low right now. I talk to him every day. I actually message him, we have our own messaging platform. He is actually doing very very well. He's taken up painting as a hobby. It's actually pretty good. I can show you some photos later." [1]

I still haven't seen any interviews with Jack Ma since his dissapearance where is he is not surrounded by multiple guys in black suits.

[1] https://youtu.be/KveMLJNhwkc?si=dGJbujD-57FlHpNP

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#79

Post by seanmcdirmid »

whatshisface wrote: post #30
makeitdouble wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda wonder how do you evaluate a thriving software economy in China's case. A bit like Japan, I feel they're not going straight at the OS vendors (Microsoft/Apple) as these will bend over backward to accomadate them anyway, and in every area they've been actively blocked they made their own rival version (e.g. cloud services) Is there anything we can point at to say "Chinese don't have the skills to do it" ?

How anyone can look at over a billion unique people and say "Chinese this" or "Chinese that" is as far beyond me as anything.

In the same way that anything done in America is reduced to 美国人 in China.

Re: Chinese Netizen Fined over 1M Yuan for Using VPN

#80

Post by winter_blue »

bjornsing wrote: post #70
raverbashing wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: First the tax authority would take about 100000-200000 USD from me. Then I’d be prosecuted for tax fraud And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? (except maybe in 3rd world countries with bribable authorities) (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though)

Sweden goes further than most western countries in this case though. For example, the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits dubble punishment for a single crime. Most European countries interpret this to mean that you can be either criminally prosecuted, or administratively sanctioned with "extra tax", but not both. Sweden however has a fondness for doing both. So in Sweden a very realistic scenario in this c…

> Also, Sweden probably has a more efficient "bailiff authority" (Kronofogdemyndigheten) than most countries. So game over really is game over. They will come to your home, with the police if necessary, and take everything of value there.

This might be a bit of silly question: but if someone were to “stand their ground” and try to defend themselves (with weapons they somehow obtained / 3D-printed / etc.) I imagine the Swedish authorities also wouldn’t hesitate in gunning that person down, right?

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