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Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

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Re: Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's kind of funny because water resonates in that band, international consensus or not?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions : > Microwave ovens are not tuned to any specific resonance frequency for water molecules in the food, but rather produce a broad spectrum of frequencies, cooking food via dielectric heating of polar molecules, including water. Several absorption peaks for water lie within the microwave range, and while it is true that these peaks are caused by quantization…

I would contest Wikipedia's description here a bit because I think it confuses the issue of microwave emissions. A number of ISM bands were allocated for RF heating applications originally, 6.78MHz, 13.560MHz, 27.12MHz, 40.68MHz, 915MHz (commonly referred to as 900MHz), 2.45GHz (commonly referred to as 2.4GHz), 61.25GHz, 122.5GHz. These are just examples taken from my NTIA chart which doesn't call all of them out.

The lower ones are largely historic, the very first RF heating experiments used HF and VHF low band which were easier to produce with the radio transmitter technology of the time, but not very efficient at all. The invention of the magnetron changed that, suddenly it was much easier to produce microwave radiation at high power levels, and so the inefficient HF/VHF RF heating devices have all but faded away (there are some specific technical applications that remain exceptions, as usual).

The low frequencies are inefficient and difficult to produce with compact electronics, the high frequencies aren't very attractive for food heating applications because of the limited skin depth. So every microwave oven you're likely to run into operates at 2.4GHz, which is pretty much the sweet spot for food heating among the allocated ISM bands. That band is defined as 2.4GHz through 2.5GHz. So I quibble with describing microwaves as "broad spectrum." Magnetrons do not produce very narrow output, one of the reasons they aren't often used for radio transmitters today, but microwave ovens are required to constrain their meaningful output to within 50MHz of 2.45GHz. 100MHz is a lot of bandwidth from a modern radio communications perspective, but isn't really that wide from a perspective of physical effects.

2.45GHz was chosen as an ISM band in part because it had good properties for heating, but it wasn't put exactly on a resonance frequency for water or anything like that. The exact details of the selection process are obscure but 2.45GHz was already being used for experimental microwave heating before the ISM band was allocated, and I would imagine came out of some combination of ease of magnetron construction and reasonably good heating properties. It is documented, for example, that the EHF bands were never popular for consumer microwave heating because of poor efficacy with food, although they do have industrial applications (especially in welding).

Given the history of the topic there's a decent chance that 2.45GHz came about because it was being used by experimental radar at the time, the main thing that magnetrons were being built for. Microwave heating was basically a byproduct of radar development during its early days of development.

Re: Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Office microwaves (assuming it's not just a retail one that happens to be in an office) can be overpowered. Think the last one I was near was a 2.5kW unit.

Good lord, who uses that much power in a microwave? 600W are enough. (Clearly, the idiots microwaving fish in them. In one office I know they put a sticker with a crossed-through fish symbol after one particularly pungent incident)

> Good lord, who uses that much power in a microwave? 600W are enough.

And next thing you'll say is that 1000W is enough for a kettle? 110V 15A AC is enough for an outlet?

Here in Europe, we don't have the patience for slow-boil kettles and slow-boil microwaves :).

(FWIW, I always stick to the full 1000W available on my microwave, and sorely miss the 1250W that my dad brought from Sweden when I was a kid.)

Re: Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

#123
My microwave oven definitely interferes with anything Bluetooth, like headsets etc. Although audio still somewhat works from a laptop upstairs ~30-50 ft away.

Anyways, this is normal. Microwave oven generates a lot of 2400-2500 MHz ISM band noise. You're fine.

Re: Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

#124

My neighbors have something crazy emanating from their house. None of my Bluetooth devices, from Bose to Plantronic to new AirPods Pro, survive signal connectivity when I walk past their house. The connection gets very disrupted and the devices have trouble reconnecting. So I have to leave everything off when I go for a run and not connect headphones until I make it to the end of the street. It’s weird.

Sounds like they have something pretty powerful swamping out that band.

Even though the ISM (2.4 GHz) band is unlicensed, there are still regulatory limits to the maximum emission levels. Devices that exceed those levels are illegal to use. The FCC can apply hefty fines in certain cases.

Fun story, I used to live in an apartment building and my car key fob wouldn't work when I parked close to the building. It would work on the other side of the parking lot though. Turns out someone was using a jammer because they hated the noise that cars make when they lock and unlock. They tried to blame a nearby military base, but I had some RF test gear and located the culprit. They turned it off pretty quick when I showed that they could be fined $10k per day.

Re: Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

#125
post #94

One thing is Bluetooth. Imagine spending 4 years trying to figure out the source of some mysterious signals registered by your giant radio telescope, only to find it was due to the microwave[1][2] used by the operators to heat hot pockets or whatever. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/05/microwave-ov... [2]: https://www.nature.com/articles/521129f

"Honey! I'm detecting some some major CMB! You gotta see this! Can you pop my lunch outta the micro too?! Thanks!"

I had a colleague who "discovered" a pulsar that later turned out to be a radar at San Francisco International Airport. I occasionally still text them photos of the "pulsar" when I have a layover at SFO.

Re: Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

#126
I have a waterpik whose motor absolutely obliterates 2.4ghz. I sometimes use it while wearing bluetooth headphones, and music immediately stops. It took me awhile to figure it out (I thought it was my head leaning down and putting a metal pegboard between me and my work machine, but nope).

Re: Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

#127
London Underground announcements in certain stations seem to break Bluetooth really frequently. I suspect that at some point, the message is being transmitted by radio and this must be at a frequency that interferes.

Also seen on platform WiFi messed up in a similar fashion - this causes the most grief when calling over WiFi kicks in, you make a call only to find it get wrecked the moment they start announcing. Luckily in some stations you actually get a better signal over mobile, so simply turning off WiFi resolves the problem.

Re: Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

#128

I once worked for a startup that was trying to stream ads over bluetooth using microwavable foods. It _worked_, but ultimately used too much bandwidth to be practical at the resolutions advertisers wanted.

That sounds amazing. Are there more details like what sort of ads even?

I agree, technically fascinating, but also... incredibly scummy. As if adtech didn't have enough invasive tools in their arsenal

Re: Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

#129

Bluetooth and WiFi both borrow their spectrum from microwave ovens. It's typical and expected that microwave ovens will cause some interference with other users of the 2.4GHz ISM band that are very nearby. Microwaves operate at very high power levels and are required to be shielded for human safety, but the permissible leakage power is relatively high compared to typical WiFi and Bluetooth devices---there's a simple…

I've read that the way to determine if your microwave is properly sealed is to put a phone inside of it, close the door, and then try calling it. I've been unable to get the phone to ring last time I did this ~12 years ago, though if there's some expected leakage, I suppose proximity to the cell tower is a factor

Re: Ask HN: Does your microwave interfere with Bluetooth? Mine does

#130
post #78
post #12

My data is anecdotal, but I've observed that Panasonic inverter ovens that I've used interfered in the 2.4GHz range, while models of other brands (e.g. GE) have not. (This is unfortunate because Panasonic seems to be the only brand that can actually adjust power output, whereas the others simulate lower power levels by cycling on and off.)

I know of at least two Panasonic inverter microwaves that failed within a 5 year period of ownership. Mine emitted white smoke warming up some tea while I was in another room. I hope to God it wasn’t beryllium. I still have a Panasonic OTR microwave, but it’s inverterless. It appears to be an improved design of a GE model from the same OEM.

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