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Pythagorean Theorem found on clay tablet 1k years older than Pythagoras (2009)

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211–220 of 248 posts

Re: Pythagorean Theorem found on clay tablet 1k years older than Pythagoras (2009)

#211
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The relationship between math and spirituality was very strong back then!" Seems to me this connection is having a resurgence now as people attempt to project the capabilities of computers beyond human capabilities, where the implications are necessarily bordering on spiritual. Examples include transhumanism, Yudkowsky-style absurdly extrapolated rationalism (Basilisk etc), the simulation hypothesis, AGI salvation…

> Examples include transhumanism, Yudkowsky-style absurdly extrapolated rationalism (Basilisk etc), the simulation hypothesis, AGI salvation hopes... But those are all examples of ways to avoid spirituality.

They are often ways to transmute spirituality into a form more palatable to contemporary sensibilities trained on technology.

Who runs the universal simulation? Another name for God. The eternal torment of Roko’s Basilisk? Another name for Hell. AGI will save us from ourselves with its incomprehensible intelligence? A cyber-Jesus. Moving your mind into a transhumanist body? Souls rising to Heaven. Etc.

Re: Pythagorean Theorem found on clay tablet 1k years older than Pythagoras (2009)

#212

Has anyone found the source for that tablet? All I have found is this: >Note that quite a few descriptions on Babylonian tablets seem to cite a translation of a Pythagorean algorithm from a ca. 1900BC tablet by a Dennis Ramsey – I have not been able to find the original source of this anywhere.[0] The linked arctile cites wikipedia and bible-history.com. This book[1] misquotes the supposed tablet as being ycb 7289, p…

The source of the photo is cited in the article: https://personal.math.ubc.ca/~cass/Euclid/ybc/ybc.html This site has a detailed analysis and explains that it's from the Yale Babylonian Collection.

I am refering to this quote:

>4 is the length and 5 the diagonal. What is the breadth ? Its size is not known. 4 times 4 is 16. 5 times 5 is 25. You take 16 from 25 and there remains 9. What times what shall I take in order to get 9 ? 3 times 3 is 9. 3 is the breadth.

That doesn't appear to be in your link – am I wrong? I only see numbers there and it appears to be talking about something else entirely.

Re: Pythagorean Theorem found on clay tablet 1k years older than Pythagoras (2009)

#213
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not a simpler explanation that Greece simply did a better job of disseminating its own literature than prior cultures? My understanding is that the “through line” of modern scientific progress begins in Greece because that’s where “trivially-legible to contemporary scholars” written history began. Like, we always knew that it didn’t start with Ancient Greece (the Greeks themselves mention this), but because abu…

> Is it not a simpler explanation that Greece simply did a better job of disseminating its own literature than prior cultures? That's a simpler explanation but it's not necessarily right. What we can say for sure is that Greek thought has been easier for Western scientists and pseudo-scientists to learn. Availability and language are parts of that for sure. Geography is, too - it's easier for Europeans to excavate Eu…

> But what does it mean to say "the Greeks" disseminated their knowledge better when virtually all of what we have comes from Roman citizens living centuries later?

That Greek knowledge and culture survived the collapse of their prominence? Similar to the Romans after them and Babylonians before them.

Greek had been a lingua franca in the major ports of future empires for centuries [1], and Greek remained a spoken and written language in the Byzantine empire (the same was not true of ancient Egyptian or Babylonian – which were supplanted by Greek or other Aramaic languages during the hellenistic period).

I think at least as much credit is owed to the inheritors of Greek culture (Romans, Byzantines, the various Arabic empires), for preserving source material and references.

But I think Greece was seen as the original "filter" for civilization because it was both "successful" and comparatively extroverted to the great civilizations that came before.

Basically, it's what you said in your middle paragraph – wide availability, accessibility of language and culture. In other words, "better dissemination". :)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonisation

Re: Pythagorean Theorem found on clay tablet 1k years older than Pythagoras (2009)

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Donald Duck in Mathmagic Land. You can find the whole thing on youtube

Found Pythagoras: https://youtu.be/4m_ROtUQ5Vk?si=0V_Jt9lS_44w2QyL

HEATHENOUS DUCK! Off with his head!

jk DD rocks

Re: Pythagorean Theorem found on clay tablet 1k years older than Pythagoras (2009)

#215

The mainstream is and was _enamored_ with Ancient Greece. Our Western culture made Ancient Greek into the vocabulary root of our sciences. We have a lineage of philosophy from Ancient Greece to the 19th century. Only in the 19th century with archeology (again a neo-word made from Ancient Greek roots – it suggests to the mainstream that the Ancient Greek had a concept of archaeology, which they obviously didn’t have)…

> suggests to the mainstream that the Ancient Greek had a concept of archaeology, which they obviously didn’t have

Why is that obvious? The ancient Egyptians & Mesopotamians had a concept of archaeology, why not the Greeks?

Re: Pythagorean Theorem found on clay tablet 1k years older than Pythagoras (2009)

#218
post #195
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clay tablets and a stylus also less convenient than pen and paper.

That entirely depends on how close you are to high-clay-content muddy bank with a growth of reeds vs. how close you are to the nearest convenience store/office supply store.

Did I just find a new metric to put on my rental house evaluation checklist? Maybe! Haha

Re: Pythagorean Theorem found on clay tablet 1k years older than Pythagoras (2009)

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've personally worked on a project where we used a 3-4-5 right triangle to lay it out on the ground. Straight lines alone do not get you right angles.

You can certainly get close enough with straight lines. If you create a parallelogram, you can get it square by making the diagonals the same length. And if you can determine that the diagonals are the same length, you have what you need to get close enough to a parallelogram in the first place.

IIRC, straight lines alone will give you projective geometry (which also has points, but they're the meet of two lines).

> If you create a parallelogram

Parallelism requires affine geometry, which you can't get just with straight lines (and their meeting points). Here are couple of explanations:

- We can also get projective geometry by using great-circles on the surface of a sphere (e.g. "equators" at different angles around the Earth), instead of straight lines on a flat plane: both situations give rise to exactly the same theory. Parallelism doesn't exist on the surface of a sphere, since all great-circles will meet at two antipodal points, so projective geometry (which describes great-circles as well as straight lines) cannot be used to construct/ensure/check that two sides of a quadrilateral are parallel.

- Alternatively, consider that projective geometry is invariant to changes in perspective, whilst parallelism is not. For example, we can get two straight lines by tracing over a photo of train tracks. If the photo was taken top-down, then the lines we traced will be parallel; but if the photo was looking along the track then our traced lines will converge (in the photo, they "meet" at the horizon). Projective geometry (and hence straight lines) can't distinguish between these two scenarios, due to this invariance.

> And if you can determine that the diagonals are the same length

If we extend our straight-line setup with some way to determine parallelism, we still wouldn't be able to compare the lengths of the diagonals, since they go in different directions. Projective geometry + parallelism is affine geometry, which can only compare lengths in the same direction. Essentially, parallelism allows us to translate: we can use this to compare two line segments by translating one so they share a common starting point, then seeing whether the other end has landed closer or further than the first line's. The latter comparison only makes sense if all the points end up colinear (i.e. the original segments were parallel, unlike a pair of diagonals).

To compare the diagonals we also need some form of metric, e.g. like the distance between a pair of compasses.

Re: Pythagorean Theorem found on clay tablet 1k years older than Pythagoras (2009)

#220
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it not a simpler explanation that Greece simply did a better job of disseminating its own literature than prior cultures? That's a simpler explanation but it's not necessarily right. What we can say for sure is that Greek thought has been easier for Western scientists and pseudo-scientists to learn. Availability and language are parts of that for sure. Geography is, too - it's easier for Europeans to excavate Eu…

> But what does it mean to say "the Greeks" disseminated their knowledge better when virtually all of what we have comes from Roman citizens living centuries later? That Greek knowledge and culture survived the collapse of their prominence? Similar to the Romans after them and Babylonians before them. Greek had been a lingua franca in the major ports of future empires for centuries [1], and Greek remained a spoken an…

> I think at least as much credit is owed to the inheritors of Greek culture (Romans, Byzantines, the various Arabic empires), for preserving source material and references.

That's what I'm saying, though. Preservation is the work of the preservers. Many of the great thinkers of Greece didn't preserve a single word. Someone else did. Often other Greeks, often Romans (who obviously spoke Greek as you say, because they believed it to be a superior language).

> wide availability, accessibility of language and culture. In other words, "better dissemination".

But B is a subset of A here. Not all of those facets that I mentioned are due to the Greeks themselves, not even indirectly.

Sometimes, Western civilization sees "The Greeks" as a progenitor civilization because... we believe they're a progenitor civilization. It's a tradition to believe so, and it may well have started by mistake or for reasons of xenophobia or other bad motivations.

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