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US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

pv-magazine.com

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Re: US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

#61

Could this be used to create a nuclear power generator without moving parts? Some radioactive material in the center, some coating to absorb the radiation, and a shell of these cells to generate electricity.

Sure, on paper.

One of the proposed ideas for nuclear rocket propulsion would contain a fissioning gas cloud inside a fused-silica glass blub. At a temperature of several thousand degrees (5,000 - 20,000 K), incandescent light escapes the glass, and gets absorbed by the hydrogen propellant (with bits of solid dust flowing through it as an opacifier). That's one-half of your idea: there's no photovoltaic component, but it does examine the "nuclear fission reactor as an optical light source" half.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_lightbulb

https://sci-hub.se/10.2514/6.1991-3512 (pdf) ("Summary of nuclear light bulb development status" (1991))

excerpt:

- "The gas core Nuclear Light Bulb (NLB) propulsion system could provide both the desired thrust and specific impulse. Initial gas core nuclear rocket (GCNR) investigations started in the 1950s when two somewhat different concepts emerged; an open-cycle GCNR and a closed-cycle GCNR (named the Nuclear Light Bulb). The open cycle configuration (Fig. 1) isolates hot fissioning gas from the chamber walls by flowing cooler propellant around the hot gas. Although some nuclear fuel will diffuse into the propellant and exhaust into space, the theoretical amount was considered too small to be of consequence. NASA-Lewis pursued the open cycle by both analysis and laboratory experiments from the ’50s through the early ‘70s.’"

- "At the same time, United Technologies Research Center, then United Aircraft Research Laboratory, explored the closed cycle NLB concept (Fig. 2).[2,3] Hot fissioning fuel in a gaseous state is confined within a transparent wall of fused silica by a vortex of tangentially injected buffer gas that is also transparent to thermal radiation. Hydrogen propellant, seeded with micron-size tungsten particles to absorb the thermal radiation from the hot fuel, flows axially outside the fused silica wall and is exhausted through thrust nozzles. Complete fuel containment requires continuous withdrawal of a small fraction of the mixture of fuel and buffer gas for reprocessing and reinjection into the vortex flow."

Re: US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

#62

I don't get why they go for storage with this. Storing a block of carbon or tungsten at 2000°C for hours or days does not sound like something that will ever be economical. A battery leaking energy this quickly (and it will leak₎ will need to be incredibly cheap to ever make sense. I wonder if you could use this with parabolic mirrors, though. Build a large mirror array, focus sunlight onto a big carbon sphere (maybe…

You won't get the claimed efficiency that way: it only applies to an enclosed heat source. It's critical that they're reflecting light outside of the PV bandgap back into the thermal mass, where it's re-absorbed and re-emitted again. If you try that with solar radiation, you'll lose most of it back into the sky. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04473-y.pdf (Equation 1 and surrounding discussion, and the ene…

If you shine solar radiation on a nice black carbon sphere, practically all of those photons are absorbed, right? The sphere gets hotter, and starts emitting IR photons.

My idea was to now enclose this sphere in TPV modules - except in places where the parabolic mirror puts sunlight on it Let's say that's half of the sphere (but you could cut this number down if you chose a parabolic mirror with a long focal point).

Now you lose IR photons in across the part of the surface that you didn't cover in TPV modules. But you could but a IR mirror there, that is transparent for most of sunlight.

Re: US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't get the claimed efficiency that way: it only applies to an enclosed heat source. It's critical that they're reflecting light outside of the PV bandgap back into the thermal mass, where it's re-absorbed and re-emitted again. If you try that with solar radiation, you'll lose most of it back into the sky. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04473-y.pdf (Equation 1 and surrounding discussion, and the ene…

If you shine solar radiation on a nice black carbon sphere, practically all of those photons are absorbed, right? The sphere gets hotter, and starts emitting IR photons. My idea was to now enclose this sphere in TPV modules - except in places where the parabolic mirror puts sunlight on it Let's say that's half of the sphere (but you could cut this number down if you chose a parabolic mirror with a long focal point).…

Wouldn't this process also contribute to climate change by trapping energy on Earth that would have been reflected back into space?

Edit: Apparently, yes, current PV solar may also do this:

> We found temperatures over a PV plant were regularly 3–4 °C warmer than wildlands at night

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep35070

But I suspect/conjecture that turning sunlight directly into heat, then turning some of that heat into electricity, would capture even more heat from sunlight.

Because some of the heat in the sphere will re-radiate, but much of it will inevitably be lost to convection and conduction.

Re: US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

#64
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also have this thing called night, as well as weather and seasons.

And we also have this looming thing called climate emergency, which should conceivably motivate us to forge ahead with renewables and adjust our energy usage patterns to match production peaks, lest we doom humanity to extinction

I feel like this is one of the biggest missed opportunities. Why do we insist on our energy system to be infinitely flexible and full power available 24/7? Is a habit of doing the laundry at night worth more than additional millions of tons of CO2 in the atmosphere?

I understand convenience, laziness and inertia (resisting change) but I also think changing the times when we click "power on" is a simpler solution than mining millions of tons of more lithium, no?

Re: US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

#65
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bettery, from the viewpoint of a circuit, is just another source. So we could call them chemical electricity generators, if we're brave enough to indulge the confusion

I still don't quite understand it. Where does the battery get the energy? I understand that there's no difference in a circuit, but why is this comparison relevant? Many power sources are way less efficient that using a battery, but we need to charge the battery.

For low-enough-power applications and sufficiently long-lasting batteries, charging is just another step in production.

Re: US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

#66

> emitter temperature of 2,400 C GE's combined cycle turbines can get system level efficiency of around 63% from these sorts of temperatures. (For those not familiar with them: They're basically aircraft jet engines followed by steam turbines using the hot exhaust. They are in widespread use to generate electricity from gas, but they can also run off any other liquid fuel, or simply off anything that gets very hot.)

They don't ever run those close to this hot, right? There's barely any turbine blade materials able to withstand half those temperatures. At those temperatures, even the best alloys lose a large percentage of their strength. And also, steam this hot is incredibly corrosive.

Gas turbines typically are limited to ~1300C to limit NOx production. However, if you have another heat source that doesn't involve combustion, that limit is taken away. And then you can run the whole thing hotter (increasing efficiency substantially).

There is no need for blades to withstand the combustion temperature, because film cooling can keep blades far cooler in high speed laminar gas flow. The challenge is that the operating gas must be dust-free or a spec of dust on the blade surface disrupts the film and causes failure.

Obviously the amount of energy wasted to pumping the film cooling gasses goes up the higher the combustion temperature is, so I assume there is still some upper limit on combustion temperature.

Re: US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you shine solar radiation on a nice black carbon sphere, practically all of those photons are absorbed, right? The sphere gets hotter, and starts emitting IR photons. My idea was to now enclose this sphere in TPV modules - except in places where the parabolic mirror puts sunlight on it Let's say that's half of the sphere (but you could cut this number down if you chose a parabolic mirror with a long focal point).…

Wouldn't this process also contribute to climate change by trapping energy on Earth that would have been reflected back into space? Edit: Apparently, yes, current PV solar may also do this: > We found temperatures over a PV plant were regularly 3–4 °C warmer than wildlands at night https://www.nature.com/articles/srep35070 But I suspect/conjecture that turning sunlight directly into heat, then turning some of that he…

Isn’t that what all solar energy devices do?

Re: US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

#68

I don't get why they go for storage with this. Storing a block of carbon or tungsten at 2000°C for hours or days does not sound like something that will ever be economical. A battery leaking energy this quickly (and it will leak₎ will need to be incredibly cheap to ever make sense. I wonder if you could use this with parabolic mirrors, though. Build a large mirror array, focus sunlight onto a big carbon sphere (maybe…

[deleted]

Re: US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

#69
post #53

I don't get why they go for storage with this. Storing a block of carbon or tungsten at 2000°C for hours or days does not sound like something that will ever be economical. A battery leaking energy this quickly (and it will leak₎ will need to be incredibly cheap to ever make sense. I wonder if you could use this with parabolic mirrors, though. Build a large mirror array, focus sunlight onto a big carbon sphere (maybe…

Carbon or tungsten I don't know, but sand as a thermal energy storage medium can be quite economical. Energy loss scales with the surface area (^2), energy stored with volume (^3). With grid scale, above certain dimensions, you can store energy for months while maintaining economic viability. Even for single days or weeks it makes sense. You need hot water in your home 24/7, but sun doesn't shine every day in most re…

Is the sand flowing or stationary?

Flowing sand has issues with blockages and erosion.

Stationary sand has pretty low conductivity, so getting all the energy out of your 200 yard cube of hot sand might be a challenge.

Re: US startup begins producing 40%-efficient thermophotovoltaic cells

#70
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon or tungsten I don't know, but sand as a thermal energy storage medium can be quite economical. Energy loss scales with the surface area (^2), energy stored with volume (^3). With grid scale, above certain dimensions, you can store energy for months while maintaining economic viability. Even for single days or weeks it makes sense. You need hot water in your home 24/7, but sun doesn't shine every day in most re…

Is the sand flowing or stationary? Flowing sand has issues with blockages and erosion. Stationary sand has pretty low conductivity, so getting all the energy out of your 200 yard cube of hot sand might be a challenge.

Just have rods similar to nuclear (well the opposite)

You can progressively sink them in as the sand cools/ you want more energy out.

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