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Kickstarter: rails.app

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Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#171
post #72

Please excuse the language, but what the fuck is happening to our world right now? What the hell has happened to "I want to build something, so I'll build it"? Now you have to [1]pay $100 for the privilege of reading the mailing list for an open source project? And some guy needs $25,000 just to start it? Guys this is...not good. Can you imagine if apache's kickstarter never got funded? If the linux kernel's didn't?…

There's a lot of "you don't want someone to get paid for their work" replies to this comment. But the OP has a really good point:

> [$100 gets you] access to the internal list for the project, where I'll be soliciting feedback about how to nail this. Great open source projects rarely come from the ideas of just one person, and your input will guarantee that Rails 4 is as great for beginners as it is for experienced developers.

That is a non-starter.

This is also not a $25,000 project.

I admire and am thankful for Yahuda's contributions and I'd have no problem funding a "Yahuda should get paid" Kickstarter but this particular project is lame.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#172
post #72

Please excuse the language, but what the fuck is happening to our world right now? What the hell has happened to "I want to build something, so I'll build it"? Now you have to [1]pay $100 for the privilege of reading the mailing list for an open source project? And some guy needs $25,000 just to start it? Guys this is...not good. Can you imagine if apache's kickstarter never got funded? If the linux kernel's didn't?…

Let me get this straight: so a prolific, proven open source contributor makes some money, and the community gets a problem fixed. This is a bad thing? Who loses here? What if Yehuda's company gave him 25% of his time to work on open source - would that be different? He'd get that same $25k (or whatever), and the software would get built (and open sourced). Only difference I can see is the source of the money, so are…

There's no problem with open source contributors making money from their work. The problem is, there is a chance that this subtle change in perspective will evolve into an unhealthy culture.

Especially since this is coming from Yehuda Katz. I've seen several people using things like Gun.io to fund patches and small additions to open source libraries, but it always seems to come from people you never see in the community - outsourcers, or people who just aren't that into coding but still code. But once a leader in the community does this... It's up in the air what this will do long term.

Here's one possible outcome. It becomes "cool" to crowd fund open source projects, so a few of the up-and-coming coders with new open source projects start doing this too. In a year or two, a big chunk of the top coders are charging to do open source work. It's a badge of worthiness... Coderwall.com get's it's "$25k+ achievement" badge.

Then one of two things can happen. The unlikely thing is, it evens out, there's a happy balance - some people charge, some people don't. Much more likely is people either start charging ridiculous amounts, the quality of free open source projects drastically decreases, or people start keeping their projects to themselves. This eventually leads to rebellion, and the true ones left start ANOTHER Free Software Foundation that gets back to the roots.

This kind of stuff happens, out of seemingly innocent and well-intentioned moves.

Like everyone's said, companies like 37signals and all the companies we work at fund open source projects, so one way or another we're getting some sort of payment. It's totally cool to make money off your open source work like this, nobody really sees it even though we all know. It's this indirectness that keeps the community healthy. It creates a feeling of open-ness. A culture. Asking for money directly like this doesn't make things feel open anymore, and like everything it will spiral.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#173
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you pointed out, your problem and the problem he is trying to solve here are completely different. Your problem definitely exists, and lots of people are working hard on solving it, whether that means those working on improving chef and puppet themselves, or on other less flashy configuration management systems, or on new projects that are attempting to improve on the existing solutions in a more fundamental way.…

and even if it were only 5 it would be worthwhile to make it easier Seriously? 1. Install XCode and homebrew 2. sudo brew install {postgresql,rbenv,ruby-build} 3. Close terminal. Open terminal. 4. mkdir proj && cd proj && rbenv install 1.9.2-p290 && rbenv local 1.9.2-p290 5. gem install rails && rbenv rehash 6. rails new foo Honestly, we can argue if this was 5 steps or 8. We can also argue if 'rbenv rehash' should b…

I've just spent a few years being paid to maintain a lot of simple scripts exactly like this one, so I'm in a good position to say: These kinds of scripts really are incredibly simple. Until they break.

But, they break.

Would you like to start a pool on how long it will be until this recipe breaks, or becomes hopelessly obsolete because some portion of it is now out of date?

Hint one: To get an idea, one could try the problem in reverse: How far back in time can you go before you reach a time when this script would not have worked yet? (Hint one, sub-hint A: The first commit to Homebrew's Git repo was in May of 2009.)

Hint two: Homebrew formulae aren't guaranteed to build at all times. They sometimes have bugs, especially when any of their dependencies (including the version of OS X itself) has recently changed. Those bugs tend to manifest as scary messages from (e.g.) the linker.

Hint three: Better get that version number out of the recipe before placing the bet. 1.9.2-p290 could become hopelessly obsolete at literally any minute; we're always just one zero-day away. It would be more reliable to pull that number from some canonical source like… um, any ideas? What is the answer to the question "how can I reliably determine, at any time over the next five years, the latest, least-buggy version of Ruby that is compatible with the version of Rails that I've got installed on my machine?" I don't know what your answer might be, but mine would be "pay someone like Yehuda Katz or the Rails core team to continuously recompute the answer, and to maintain the website that hosts the answer".

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#174
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and even if it were only 5 it would be worthwhile to make it easier Seriously? 1. Install XCode and homebrew 2. sudo brew install {postgresql,rbenv,ruby-build} 3. Close terminal. Open terminal. 4. mkdir proj && cd proj && rbenv install 1.9.2-p290 && rbenv local 1.9.2-p290 5. gem install rails && rbenv rehash 6. rails new foo Honestly, we can argue if this was 5 steps or 8. We can also argue if 'rbenv rehash' should b…

I've just spent a few years being paid to maintain a lot of simple scripts exactly like this one, so I'm in a good position to say: These kinds of scripts really are incredibly simple. Until they break. But, they break. Would you like to start a pool on how long it will be until this recipe breaks, or becomes hopelessly obsolete because some portion of it is now out of date? Hint one: To get an idea, one could try th…

Well, that was the most reasonable response so far, at least you know what you're talking about.

But, they break.

The rails-answer would be "so is life". My answer is: Then fix it, damnit. Not you personally, but the maintainers. We must stop accepting constant wreckage as an inherent property of the rails-ecosystem. It is not inherent. Other systems such as debian APT work pretty flawlessly under significantly more complex conditions (thousands of packages on multiple architectures, for starters).

Isn't rails the one with the 17 different testing frameworks and TDD kool-aid? How about adding structured tests for the installation procedure, too?

Keeping a ruby/rails installation procedure functional is not rocket science. And in defense of the actors: I do consider the current state-of-the-art (rbenv, bundler) to be fairly close to something that one could call reasonable.

Hint one, two, three

The exact same applies to any installer that you may come up with. It either has to perform the famous 5-steps behind the scenes, or it has to re-invent all the tooling that is only now barely stabilizing (square 1 again, really?).

answer to the question "how can I reliably determine, at any time over the next five years, the latest, least-buggy version of Ruby that is compatible with the version of Rails that I've got installed on my machine?"

That is the wrong question. The correct question is "how do I install a self-contained rails runtime environment on my current machine" (which includes ruby and all core-dependencies).

The current answer is the above script. If the preferred tools change for a platform then update the procedure accordingly. Keep the current procedure in plain view in the documentation (Section 1: Installation).

It's not as hard as you make it out to be, really.

Re: Kickstarter: rails.app

#175
post #72

Please excuse the language, but what the fuck is happening to our world right now? What the hell has happened to "I want to build something, so I'll build it"? Now you have to [1]pay $100 for the privilege of reading the mailing list for an open source project? And some guy needs $25,000 just to start it? Guys this is...not good. Can you imagine if apache's kickstarter never got funded? If the linux kernel's didn't?…

Let me get this straight: so a prolific, proven open source contributor makes some money, and the community gets a problem fixed. This is a bad thing? Who loses here? What if Yehuda's company gave him 25% of his time to work on open source - would that be different? He'd get that same $25k (or whatever), and the software would get built (and open sourced). Only difference I can see is the source of the money, so are…

I agree...I don't use Rails for production work (yet); however, I dig what is going on here and I've also donated. The Rails community definitely takes care of business and seems to have a much more entrepreneurial spirit than most (if not all) other dev communities that I've witnessed. I'll have some of that please!
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