Live data from Hacker News

Richard Stallman Talks Red Hat, AI and Ethical Software Licenses at GNU Birthday

fossforce.com

91–99 of 99 posts

Re: Richard Stallman Talks Red Hat, AI and Ethical Software Licenses at GNU Birthday

#91
post #35

I went to a small talk rms gave in London in around 2009. The talk was unmemorable (my fault, likely, not his) but the Q&A afterwards was remarkable: He screamed at people for using 'open source' instead of 'free software' in their questions, raved about the Amazon "Swindle" like a 12-year-old, and talked over and down to everyone. He was often accurate in the core of what he was trying to say, but his attitude was u…

100%. An interesting property of most online communication is that you can’t see all the people ‘scrolling by’ like you would in person. This IMO gives people an unfounded sense of RMS’s…legitimacy(?) in these circles.

IMHO RMS’s socially abrasive attitude and communication style, and the overall unapproachability of the FSF, goes a way toward ensuring that anyone that can stomach advocating for “the cause” is similarly abrasive. This is to the point where some people conflate being a jackass with supporting Free Software as a movement or even as a concept. Like, aspects of some dude called Richard’s personality and even his proclivities wrt how he chooses to go about his computing life are cargo-culled by this decentralised group of fans. You see it here all the time. Someone will be talking about Free Software, and use this as a license to be an asshole to people.

There is in my experience a large silent majority that simply won’t engage with these conversations, not because they don’t see a legitimate place for the Free Software movement, but because the culture is so unnecessarily toxic and unapproachable on account of the people that it puts on a pedestal. It certainly puts others off from the actual principles of the movement altogether.

Time was, computing was for entirely socially adjusted - primarily - women. I as much as possible try to see the period of dominant industry voices being overrun with socially awkward asshole nerds to be a blip rather than an origin story or an ongoing necessity. At this stage I think we are at the point where continuing to give these people a social platform just because of some sense of prestige is not the way to go.

Re: Richard Stallman Talks Red Hat, AI and Ethical Software Licenses at GNU Birthday

#92
post #40
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the infamous article that tried to cancel Stallman and agreed with most of it. She was wrong at the end when she tried to destroy his legacy and image. Stallman has done a lot, but he's doing more harm than good nowadays. It's mature to know when to step down and give the next generation space to grow.

I read just today that there's no such thing as 'cancel culture', what it is, is 'consequence culture': The observation that it's becoming less accepted that we must protect the rich/famous/powerful just because they're rich/famous/powerful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8&vl=en

I think that it’s useful to hear a balanced take on cancel culture from someone that’s not, frankly, some Hollywood figure making dumb “cancel culture” jokes because they’re secretly pooping their pants over when it’s going to happen to them.

Re: Richard Stallman Talks Red Hat, AI and Ethical Software Licenses at GNU Birthday

#93
post #16

It is really jarring to see RMS without his iconic beard. I hope he recovers soon from his cancer, we need GNU and free software proselytism more than ever today.

It is great that his prognosis is good, but who is stepping up to bring the movement into the next generation?

The FSF and its leagues of fanboys should be thought about that decades ago instead of painting themselves into a corner by being utterly unapproachable by anyone that wasn’t using computers in 2004.

Re: Richard Stallman Talks Red Hat, AI and Ethical Software Licenses at GNU Birthday

#94
You’re never going to get children interested in free software. They barely know what software is let alone the distinction between free and proprietary software.

On the other hand you will be able to get adults interested, there are likely plenty of us out there that are completely jaded from using proprietary software most of their lives. The ideals of freedom, privacy and openness are still valued by some and they should be the core of the recruitment message.

Re: Richard Stallman Talks Red Hat, AI and Ethical Software Licenses at GNU Birthday

#95
post #16

It is really jarring to see RMS without his iconic beard. I hope he recovers soon from his cancer, we need GNU and free software proselytism more than ever today.

He was really unrecognizable to me. I would have thought I'd recognize his face even without the hair, but apparently not.

Re: Richard Stallman Talks Red Hat, AI and Ethical Software Licenses at GNU Birthday

#96
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the South, "coke" is a generic term for soft drinks. Supposedly ordering "Pepsi coke" is a thing. He can scream all he wants, but it's not a productive conversation.

They are productive, because they are literally different things. I would equally be annoyed if someone called an Apple an Orange, because they are not the same thing.

If the whole world is using "cola" as a word to describe your "pepsi" and you are (maybe even rightly so!) convinced they are literally different things here is a free tip:

It is up to you to convince the people that the difference is big enough that they should want to change their language. And you know how to make sure they won't want to do that? Speak down to them, paint them as stupid for not knowing and so on.

Re: Richard Stallman Talks Red Hat, AI and Ethical Software Licenses at GNU Birthday

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you stopped reading somewhere in the middle.

I read it again, all I got is that you want to redefine intelligence specifically to not include current AI That feels like goalpost moving. Having it be interpretable is a useful quality but it’s not the same as intelligence

Well... no, I don't want to redefine "intelligence". I don't know how you got this idea.

What I'm saying is that "intelligence" didn't mean "guessing the best answer by averaging many known, externally generated answers" before neural network approach became popular. Intelligence was always about finding good solutions to problems.

In rare cases doing nothing is a good solution to a problem, in less rare cases, statistically guessing is a good solution, but it still doesn't answer the question of how to find a good solution. No amount of improving the accuracy of statistical guess will answer this question because what we need is a proof that the claim is correct, but the guess is the opposite of a proof -- it's asking you to take the claim on faith.

In practical terms, compare these two scenarios:

1. A neural net AI is diagnosing breast cancer in a patient. Suppose, it was a male patient (a very rare occurrence, that's likely to fail statistically guessing AI). AI fails to find cancer and the patient dies.

2. A radiologist diagnosing breast cancer in a patient. Same circumstances as before. The radiologist fails to identify cancer, the patient subsequently dies.

In the first case, we don't even expect the AI to be correct. Nobody's taking the blame, because, well... we've constructed this AI to be guessing statistically. It couldn't have enough data to guess reliably because in order to do so it needed to see more breast cancer in male patients than we have data for.

In the case of a radiologist, we expect the radiologist to understand that they are treating an exceptional case. We will blame them, and probably sue for malpractice because we expect them to be able to reason, to be able to explain why what they see "makes sense" and why their response to what they saw "made sense". We will hold them responsible for failing this patient.

In common understanding of the word "intelligence", the radiologist is intelligent (or, at least, we expect them to be), while neural net isn't.

Re: Richard Stallman Talks Red Hat, AI and Ethical Software Licenses at GNU Birthday

#98

You’re never going to get children interested in free software. They barely know what software is let alone the distinction between free and proprietary software. On the other hand you will be able to get adults interested, there are likely plenty of us out there that are completely jaded from using proprietary software most of their lives. The ideals of freedom, privacy and openness are still valued by some and they…

Children understand the feeling of being told they can't do something for no good reason, the sense of unfairness it evokes, and the desire to vocalize it (rather than suppressing it knowing it will be met with responses in the form of the thought-terminating cliche that "life's not fair").

Re: Richard Stallman Talks Red Hat, AI and Ethical Software Licenses at GNU Birthday

#99
post #9
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe his perspective on AI is colored by the fact that he's not going to get to see it fully developed so he has nothing to gain.

I doubt that. As someone who was enthusiastic about AI before neural networks rose to prominence, I only shake my head when I hear people ascribe all sorts of properties of intelligence to the particular trend in AI that is in vogue today. The ultimate quest of AI was to understand how to make good decisions. The idea was that maybe if we emulate human activity that humans call "intelligence", but remove all the rand…

I don't necessarily agree with you but I agree with this discussion. This kind of long-hard-look at what intelligence means is necessary today. We need to understand what we have here, what is this AI, what is our intelligence, and how much we can rely on AI.

Just 12 months ago if you polled here you would find much more naive opinions. But now we are learning fast to evaluate AI and human work critically. We have had our hundred hours of AI play and all tried to make it stumble, then to make it work, and in the end we are wiser for it.

Regular citizens even know not to trust the bunch of benchmark scores every new model shoves in our eyes, like hardened ML researchers. And basic AI concepts are infiltrating and getting root in the public - model, parameters, tokenisation, datasets, fine-tuning, vector search, and their complex interplay.

Post reply on HN